art for all
Creative inspiration and advice to help you stop procrastinating and start making stuff. Any kind of stuff. Hosted by best-selling author Danny Gregory. Brought to you by Sketchbook Skool.
art for all
54. Analog/Digital
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This week John and Danny discuss digital and analog ways of doing things and other vagaries of modern life.
From Season 3 of "art for all," the Sketchbook Skool podcast. Join artists/authors, Danny Gregory and John Muir Laws in rich discussions about the creative process.
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Hi there and welcome to the art for all podcast, Danny Gregory. I am well, I'm the co-founder of scheduled school or founders Geisel school. A person who works at scheduled school and I'm a, I don't know, an artist and a writer and stuff, but I do this podcast with my friend, John, go ahead. Introduce
John Muir Lawsyourself. I am John Muir laws. I am a scientist wildlife biologist by training and nature, sketcher, observer, and a sketchbook evangelist, and happy to with
Danny Gregoryyou too. And now you're a cartoon character.
John Muir LawsYeah. I got to see that for my first time today. It made me happy
Danny Gregoryif an icon, you know, I like, I think every podcast should have an animated opening and ours now does. So if you're watching this on YouTube, you actually got to see it. And if you're not watching on YouTube, you can only imagine it. And yeah, spectacular. There's something about the aesthetics of a sort of like 1960s chat shows that appeals to me in this context. So that's kind of how I was managing it. Right. You know? And I, I think our theme song feels sort of like that too. It feels like, it feels like it's from another year. It doesn't feel like it's 21st century. Exactly.
John Muir LawsWell, we, we are sort of promoting analog technology as you sip your tea cup. And we dip into our sketchbooks. Yeah, the there there's something wonderful about that, that, that analog note-taking
Danny GregoryI know we should make the first analog podcast. How would that work?
John Muir LawsI'll send you a letter.
Danny GregoryYou could send me a letter
Intro
Danny Gregoryand then I could read it in a really loud voice and hope that somebody hears it. And
John Muir Lawsthat could be the best that's right? Yeah. The, the, the, the, the first podcasts, whereas w we're probably was somebody eavesdropping on people at the next booth at the day.
Danny GregoryThere you go. It used to be called conversation. That's right. It's an old Relic of an idea that we are attempting to keep alive here.
John Muir LawsAnd that, that's an, an interesting thing that the there, there, there seems to be when, when people start talking about things that matter to them, folks often, often sort of stop having a conversation to sort of explore ideas and more kind of get into a kind of a debate mode these days. I think there's, there's, we've, we've heard so much kind of talk radio kind of take one for my team wrong. Yes. Banter that we think that that's kind of a legit way to interact with each other. I think. Kind of shreds our ability to, to, to think with each other and, and be able to to even change our minds when there's evidence that, that, you know, I might've made a mistake. I know I've made lots of mistakes and I'm still making them. But if you're in kind of a debate mode rather than a conversation, then you, you, you, you can't let the other person have a, when you have to, for your team show that you're right. And when you're in that mode, there's no way that you're going to be able to think clearly enough to, to realize that for me to realize when I'm full of it,
Danny GregoryI'm going to strongly disagree with you there, John.
Analog technology
John Muir LawsWell, there you go again, Danny,
Danny Gregoryis it because in the, because like everybody has everybody has a microphone nowadays, EV I mean, look at us here. We are. We've decided that we have something to say that people should hear. And so we have
Everybody has a microphone
Danny Gregoryyou know, a platform to do that with and virtually, I mean, it's not to be cliche, but it's that old Andy Warhol, everybody has, everybody's famous for 15 minutes thing. You know, which is, I don't know that anybody's actually famous for 15 minutes anymore. It seems like everybody's constantly on. And they have, you know, they have just so many opportunities for broadcasting, their opinions and points of view about stuff that, that it seems like we're much less flexible about things. Maybe because of that. I dunno.
John Muir LawsWell, it seems to me that, you know, everybody has a microphone. Everybody has a, a printing press now. But nobody has an editor. That's a good morning. And I don't think that we, I think that there's such a pressure to get content out that sitting on it and thinking about it. That, that doesn't happen. My dad always used to say that there's that when you're, when you're feeling really upset about something and you're going to write that letter, he says, go ahead and write that letter, but then take that letter. This was the days when people wrote letters, take that letter and set it aside. Cause that's, that's the letter. And the letter that you're going to send out is the letter that is after that letter when you've had a chance to think about. A little bit more and perhaps be able to not communicate how you're feeling, but communicate in a way that somebody else can actually listen to. And sometimes some, some restraint and time and more thought is going to help us do that. But the, but that, doesn't the things that will get you clicks and get you shared around and listened to is the more extreme you are. Right? And it's, it's, it's outrage, anger. That is, that is mighty clickbait. And even if you are passionate about something, the, the, the, the, the shock of the anger that advertisers have found out that, you know, that. That sells. Both allows voice.
Danny GregoryYeah. Yeah. I think there's, I think there's another thing too though, which is there is so much what we now call content constantly being made. Right. There's so much stuff it used to be that you'd get, you know, a couple of magazines a month, you know, you'd get the daily paper, you know, there'd be. Some broadcast professionals who are on your radio there would be sort of the Walter Cronkite's of the world giving you information on your TV. And that was kind of it right there. Wasn't that, whereas now there's so much information and there's more information being made available constantly. Not just information but stuff. Right? Yeah. And so what's happened is this yeah. So the stuff that matters the most, the stuff that gets the attention is just the newest stuff. It's just the stuff that's on the top of the pile, just cause you can't necessarily be bothered to go and read stuff from three days ago. And so it's the new stuff. And so that stuff isn't, so this is urgency to make and keep making and keep putting it out there because the only stuff that's going to matter is the stuff that's on the top and that doesn't. But I think that, I think that this has been going on now for several years, but I'm also hearing more and more of this phenomenon called create or burn. Right. So because all these platforms that make money from creative people, making stuff and putting it out there for free incidentally, by-in-large for free, they make money by selling advertising to it. They're interested in having an endless supply and having a reason for you to keep coming back, keep coming back because there's more and more and more. And so a lot of people who initially were excited by and then making money from creating content are now burning out. They're running out of ideas. They're having psychological problems. They're getting exhausted. They feel like they can't miss a day. I mean, I have to say I'm, I'm somewhat in that category. I mean, I put out a lot of stuff and you have this feeling based on the Zeit Geist that you have to constantly do it. That it's only consistency that will reward you with popular. And so as a result, it doesn't really matter what the quality is, what matters is the quantity. So you just kind of put it out there and that, but, and, but I'm hearing more and more that, that is that people are starting to rebel against that and that maybe people will start putting out things in, you know, put out a season. You know, we used to be on the TV, shows me when there was like the new season on ABC and we'll start in September and it would run for like two months and then they would do reruns, you know, they got to do that kind of thing, but, but, but creators, creative people on social media platforms, don't get to do that. So they may start doing that. I mean, there's definitely gonna be a comeuppance of some kind, this, this is not a sustainable world of creativity right now, this, this idea that people are putting out huge amounts of stuff, getting paid, nothing for it and feeling compelled to keep going. I mean, we talked about this last time about. How people are now, sorry to ask to get paid for their content, putting it behind a pay gate. But also I think it's just the math of volume. And how do you make it more reasonable and who wants to listen to it all? You have any podcasts? All of a sudden, like 2 million podcasts. Wow. Yeah. There's, there's so many podcasts that I'm sure you've had this experience. You go, I should, I'd like to look at a new podcast and there's so many of them, and then you start accumulating more and more than, than you think. Like my life is too short. I don't have the time to listen to all this crap. So, and I don't have time to watch all these YouTube videos. And I don't have time to read all these newsletters and read the newspaper to read the books and to see the movies and to watch the Netflix shows it's incessant. You need 50 lifetimes to get through it all. And again, as you said before, there's not any, not editors, but there also aren't that many reliable curators. There's a lot of people who are in the business of curation who are going to say, you know what? I'll tell you what to watch. I'll tell you what to listen to because I've listened to it. But yeah. That isn't always entirely reliable anyway, off of my soap box for a second. Come on.
John Muir LawsThe you know, in this
Not to do list
John Muir Lawsincreasingly filled busy world, one of the exercises that I think we have to keep coming back again and again to is deciding what we're not going to do and being okay with that. And so in, so not so much the, we do want to think about what are the things I want to prioritize, but I think for me, I have to also then be really intentional about what are things that I'm going to take off my plate. And I heard
Danny Gregorysomebody described that as the, not to do list
John Muir Lawsthe, not to do list. I'm going to write that down.
Danny GregoryNot, not to do like to, I don't have to do this stuff. Because if you don't have a, not to do list, then your to do list, is this overwhelming?
John Muir LawsThat's right. And to th there are, there are things that don't produce a product that are really important to be doing. And I think that a lot of the, the, the elements that actually, oh, can you still hear me, Danny? I'm my, my screen is frozen. Oh, good. So I actually have, have a frozen image of you scratching your head. Oh, there you are you back in the so, but, but yeah, thinking about Prioritizing stuff that doesn't make a product, but it's really important for being a human being is really good that time to downtime, to do nothing downtime to the, the, the play, the, the reading books with your daughter these sorts of things, they're not producing something and so easy. It's easy to sort of get those to get swept aside by the tasks that have a product associated with them. But I, for me, I find it it's really, really helpful to, to be intentional to say, this is stuff I'm not doing. This is stuff that doesn't create a product that is. That is a high priority for me right now. And so that when I'm doing that, I can just be doing that without having some of my, part of my, some part of my brain saying to me like, you know what, you know, what you should be doing right now. It helps
Productive all the time
John Muir Lawskind of tamp that voice down. Yeah.
Danny GregoryI hear you. And I intellectually agree with you, but viscerally, I also feel compelled to be productive all the time. Like this weekend. I said, you know, I'm not going to do anything this weekend. And at one point I found myself on the exercise bike with a video, going with an instructor, instructing me on riding the bike and like a class. But I also saw it as he had my phone on and was watching a video about how to use a piece of software. So instead of doing nothing, I was actually multitasking, exercising, learning, and sweating, and doing all this stuff. And I was like, okay, I guess so, but my brain is kind of, I'm like one of those rants who's been given so much cocaine by pushing the button that it's difficult for me to just dislike chill and be, you know, I mean, that's, that's kind of who I become. How,
John Muir Lawshow did that feel
Danny Gregoryreally productive? I was like, look at me now, if one there's something else I could, could I be drawing while I'm doing this too? No, I mean, it's, I, I think what happens is you a lot of, a lot of the time, particularly when you work for yourself, you know, you always have this feeling that you need to be doing more. I think it's like the F freelancers always have this dilemma. Right. Which is, you know, can you ever afford to turn down work? You know, or you have a lot of work at one point, and then he say I have so much work. I can't do it also. I'm going to, but if I turn it down, then they'll come to those times where I don't have work. And why did I turn that other thing down? I could have been doing it now. You know, so there's, there's, there's constantly that tension. I think where we're put in charge of ourselves, when you work for somebody else, then you can go, oh, he's making the work this weekend. God damn it. Or you can say, oh, I want to take, I get six weeks vacation a year. Or, you know, those kinds of things, you have this kind of bulwark, this, this things that's going to stop you from, from, you know, you and you have something to push against to say, okay, I'm not going too far. But when you, when you're kind of just working for you, a lot of times, I find like I can be like the lousiest boss I've ever had, you know? Cause my boss is like, certainly you're going to work. Certainly I'm going to wake you up at three o'clock in the morning and give you an assigned. I never had a boss did that before.
John Muir LawsOh, well the, I guess I'm of two minds about this one is so I guess I'm going to disagree with myself. I'll try to do it. Which one?
Danny GregoryWhich version of me are you going to be disagreeing
John Muir Lawswith too? I'm not sure, but this is so here's or maybe this will be a third point in the room that, that yeah, but, so I think that like, when, when you are passionate about a project, you go to sleep, wake thinking about it. You wake up in the middle of the night with like three more ideas about it and it's fun and it's bubbling away. And then you go for a walk and you don't think about it. And all of a sudden you see, do on a spiderweb and it reminds you of this thing and it solves your problem because it's just been kind of on some neuron back there, bubbling away. When I am in a state like that with a project, it is it's, it's delightful. It's, it's fun for me to have this stuff that it, it feels, it feels consuming with my, my attention and the focus on it, doesn't feel it's not so much a labor. But so it doesn't feel like work in other words. Yeah. And, and, and, and there will be times, you know, in, let's say, you know, I'm writing a book about about, about birds and how to draw birds. So I, I work on, I sit down at the table and I, and I work on the little illustration and. The next morning, I wake up with a vision of a better way to do that same thing. So there's parts in there where you're definitely you're putting in the time and the work, but there's, there's a flow to it. There is a lightness and your, your interests are connected with what you're doing. And for me, that's really different than when there's things that you should be doing, that you feel these, that, that I've, I've gotta be doing this and this and this and this and this. And it may not kind of carry that, that same, that same energy, the, these things that you should be doing. There is, it's hard. It's more difficult to kind of get in that flow state where all the ideas are going in any chance I can get to be distracted of that. My brain often my brain often does.
Danny GregoryYeah, I mean, I had a thing this weekend where, so I've been, you know, I write an essay a couple of times a week and I accumulate a lot of ideas for essays. So I'm reading something and I'll send it, it'll trigger an idea. So I'll send myself an email about it and, or I'll be walking my dog and I'll suddenly think of something. I'll send myself something. And so I have all these ideas that are, you know, it might be four words. It might be a paragraph that I wrote. I mean, some cause sometimes I like dictate something to my phone while I'm walking. So I have all these little bits and. When I sit down to write, I will sometimes plumb those, pull one out, see where it goes. See if I'm in the same place as I was when I had that idea. Or sometimes it'll just, I'll just think of something else and write something else. But I still have that big backlog of literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of ideas. And so I think to myself, I've got to organize those ideas because some of them may be the same ideas, but some of them might interact with each other. We've talked about this idea of the second brain a few months ago, but I think. You know, then like this weekend, when I was on my bike, watching this video about software, I was kind of researching like, is there a system that I could develop that I can take all my ideas and put them into database and tag them and see how they all interact. And I spent, I spent like a fair amount of time this weekend, thinking about that and trying to work on figuring out, like, how do I use this software to do this? Isn't it. And then there came a point where I suddenly said, this is ridiculous. Like, if you want to just sit down and write an idea to sit down and write it, like, you don't need to have databases with tags that is just procrastination. That's all you're doing. And so then it's like, well, get inside, but I kinda liked doing it. I mean, I sort of interested in solving the problem. I thought how cool it would be if I have this like bank of info ideas and they're all sizzling off each other, but no, it's, it was just. Should I do that? Should I do something? I should do something with all these ideas. I should organize these and I should learn how to do this. I can impose those shoots and they don't necessarily feel like a burden, but it turns out they're really a distraction, you know, there it's, you know, it's like, it's it, isn't it. Isn't like, oh, my mean boss is making me do this thing. It's not that it's this part of my head. That's like, let's solve this other problem. Instead of solving the problem that you is probably the most important thing. And then I can say to myself, so should I sit down and write? And is that the, should that that's bumming me out or is it just, I don't know, I'm going down the path of the easier thing or the endless thing. That's another thing about all this organizational stuff and software and organism is it's all. It's all stuff that is. Yeah, fairly easy. It's not as hard as like wrestling with an idea and actually figuring out the best way to write it, which I don't mind doing. But anyway, sorry, I'm a little scattered.
John Muir LawsWell, I, I like your, your distinction of that. It's a distraction versus
Present in me
John Muir Lawsversus a burden. And that got me thinking about distracted from, from what, and I wonder if that is not that it's a distraction from the work, but it's a distraction from being present. It's a level of kind of Metta Metta planning that is so far removed from engaging that. It just sort of, it, it has all the feeling of being busy. So it, it kind of, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're deep in busy land, but it's not something that engages you with the world. It's not something that pulls you into a deeper connection with that world. I'm going to write down the
Danny Gregoryword. Yeah. Yeah. But I think, I think like if I'm sitting in writing, am I really engaged with a world at that point? Or am I engaged with the idea or am I struggling to come up with the idea or I'm trying to figure out how to write it, or am I, is that, is that being present for times? It doesn't feel particularly present in me. I feel like I'm in living in my head at that time when I'm sitting down and writing is sound like in a dream.
John Muir LawsMaybe say a little bit more about that. Well, okay. So
Danny Gregoryif, if I'm, if somebody interrupts me when I'm in that state, it's sort of like jarring, right? It's like being in the flow state flow state is isn't necessarily that guy, you know, you can be in a flow state and like walk into a door, you know? Right. You can be, you can be completely detached from reality when you're in the flow state. So is it being present or is it being present in the flow state that we're talking about? Because you were kind of suggesting that being present is like more important somehow and better.
John Muir LawsYeah. I know when you are in flow, your, your focus on whatever it is, Is is, is amplified. Whether you're observing a flower or you're involved in a game or or even in a book I think you can kind of get lost in, in all of those experiences. Maybe, maybe here's a way of kind of playing with this. Let's think about the idea of busy-ness as opposed to being creative, but being so busy versus
Danny Gregorycreative. So sharpening pencils versus using. Straightening the studio buying. I've got to go to the art supply store and buy some supplies. I should do some research and see what other people are doing on Instagram. What kind of birds are they drawing should go to the library and look at some books there.
John Muir LawsThe, the feeling that I should be doing something, if I'm busy, I am protected from that feeling because I'm look I'm, I'm just so busy. I don't have, but if I am, if I am nibbling an apple in such a way that it makes a monster face and so. My, my, my daughter, Carolyn, and I can, you know, have our two partially eaten apples talking to each other. You know, that's that's being present. It's not being, you're not making stuff. You have to admit to yourself that you're not so busy that you like could be answering my emails right now, but no, I'm actually nibbling faces into an apple. And I just have to, I have to accept that I have to own that. And don't say that this is actually a higher priority for me than answering those. Apologies to all the people who are waiting on a reply right now.
Danny GregoryYeah. You never read my email that I sent you last week now. No, that's a good example of
John Muir Lawsit. You sent me this email, I guess, about the, the cool video.
Danny GregoryI sent you a lot of very extremely important emails and I'm was very distraught. I was like, did something terrible happened to him? How could he possibly have ignored these emails? Did I offend him? And now I find out what you would, what you were really up to nibbling faces with the
John Muir Lawsapples, nibbling faces into apples, and then making them talk in
Danny Gregoryfunny places. I think you need one of those automatic reply things on your email. Sorry, I got your email, but I can't answer it right now. Cause I'm really busy. They're blank faces into Apple's Sean you're loss later.
John Muir LawsBut yeah, I think that sometimes the, the, the busy-ness is a, you can keep yourself occupied with something that prevents you from engaging with. With, with people, the world with, with your feelings. And, but, but, but to, to, to, to give yourself permission, like th th the nibbling, the fit, the time spent nibbling faces into apples is I think a critical part of being a human being for me, it's a critical part of being a daddy. Right. And you, you could say that, you know, you're not being, you're not being productive, you're not being creative, but I am producing this little apple, and I am engaging fully in this moment. Oh, maybe there's a thread there that, that I'm going to, I'm going to throw this out and then see if it sticks. That when I am now, I've lost the thought
Creating memory
Danny GregoryI thought I, okay. Here's a thought I had, I'm going to which in sideways, you're busy creating a person you're creating memories and perspectives in your daughter. That's what you were doing. So you were actually involved with something that was important. And that's right. So, so you, you know, this is, cause I was thinking about it earlier. It's like the one way of prioritizing it is really not necessarily what will they carve on your tombstone, but what are the things that will resonate in the world in what you're doing and answering emails may or may not. You know, it depends what they are, but I think spending time with, with people who you love. Can have effects on the, on the, on their world. On the future. Your daughter might look back on this memory years from now, it may affect how she raises her kids, you know, those kinds of things. And not that that's the reason you were doing it, but that is possibly the effect of it. So, you know, that is a, that is a variable in assessing whether it's a useful way of spending time.
John Muir LawsSo that, yeah, that makes me then think about that. We have these different roles in our lives and we, we need to prioritize, give yourself permission to prioritize. Like if one of your roles is I'm, I'm a, I'm a writer. One of your roles is maybe I'm an, an artist. It's one of your identities.
Danny GregoryOr your database manager, like I am.
John Muir LawsYeah, I think it's so easy. At least in the U S to let your identity of I'm a database manager be more important than say the daddy. There are, there are economic forces pushing you towards the, you know, focusing on the database versus the daddy. There are social forces doing the same thing
Danny Gregoryand there are people there's your
John Muir Lawsboss. That's right. That's right. There's somebody who holds, holds in a position of authority over you with saying that your identity has got to, that. You've got to prioritize that identity over there. And so maybe that is the blessings of when you, if you have a job that you do, and then you come home from it and it stays at work, you can then come home, go through that door and you switch your identities, both you and I are self-employed and sort of running our own businesses and kind of, you know, that and, and working from home, maybe be like behind both of us. There's yep. There is their home. And so the ability to to intentionally leave those other identities behind to give time and space for the. The, the creative side or the the, the, the family side, hold on a second. That is to, for those to be valued it, it takes it, it takes intentionality.
Danny GregoryYeah. I mean, I think, I think that that's all very well, but that doesn't necessarily mean that, that, that isn't another should, like, you should be a good dad, you know, or your wife might say, You know, you should go and play with the kids. You haven't spent enough time with them. I mean, this, this shit all around should the bound. So I don't know that. And you know, and, and this is, I think we think that it's more noble to spend to I'll look at him. He's such a good dad. Yes. But he's gotten fired from his last six jobs because he was out playing hooky with his kids instead of showing up what kind of a Dan does that. So anyway, should we move on to another subject? I feel like we're getting deep into this and I'm a little lost and I had a really burning agenda that we are now
John Muir Lawsthe, well,
Danny Gregorywhat do you want to you? You still, you still have some toothpaste left in the two.
John Muir LawsWell, I don't know if I do but w we could engage with the other idea and it might, part of it might come back to this, or it might not.
Danny GregoryIt's, you know, we're Americans, we're free to do whatever we want. All right. So when I was going to do, as, as regular listeners to this program, may know we have been, we've taken the step of publishing our email address and sharing it with the world. And wouldn't, you know, it, people have been writing back to us. That's been fun. So, so what should we be aware of what you asked for and there, and there've been lots of really very nice and very, some very in-depth ones.
Sharing Email
Danny GregoryI want to share a couple with you and and see, you know, what you think here's the first one is from Alison Deneen and she says, I just wanted to give you some feedback since you add. And because I know how much, sometimes you just wonder, what do people think about this thing I'm doing? Does it mean anything to them? My feedback is simply I love the show. I was waiting for her to say something like you, and I gotta be honest with you. You've wasted a lot of my time with your perambulations and peregrinations, and I'm sick of it.
John Muir LawsW w there may be a survivorship bias here than people who are going to take the time to give us feedback are people who are enjoying what we're doing and the ones who didn't. They are also not going to sit, take the time to sit down and write us an email. So
Danny GregoryI wish that that were true, but I hear, I hear much more often from people who despise what I do. Oh, no, that's not actually true. That's that's a lie. But, but what I was thinking you were going to say was that we should be putting the email address at the end of the show. So that way only people who've listened to all of it, know how to get in touch with us.
John Muir LawsOh, that that would be, that would be a safety valve. Right.
Danny GregoryBut we're not going to it. You can write to us@podcastatscheduledschool.com as Alison Denise did. Here's here's one of the, this is one from Joyce L full grin. That is, it was a very long email and I've just edited a little part of it out because I thought it was interesting. She basically talked in an earlier part that I've excised about how. She, when she was younger was really loved art and of going the idea of going to art school and basically was talked out of it by various people. And she struggled with it ever since. And then she says for the last eight years, I've had little room upstairs, all to myself to do art. It is well appointed, bright and quiet. And as I pushed the door open an overwhelming sense of peace and happiness wash over me. And yet I rarely go in there. And when I do, I rarely stay long. Everything necessary to make art. Is there. My younger self, the one who always had a sketchbook in hand would have been blown away to have all this. She would have been in this room, making things every chance she had the depleted me of today. Can't appreciate anything. And this is where your podcast comes in. I chose podcasts 41, how to begin to create as the seem to be what I needed. And as I listened, I began dusting the various workstations around the room, hearing two people talk about themselves and their art and to sense the joy they experience while practicing and every day gave me a noticeable nudge. I played another conversation and began painting eggshells. The podcast ended and I turned off the computer smiling. It was the longest time I'd spent in the room in years. I've been doing eggshell art since age 13, but it's not a passion. And I found it telling that I used it to avoid an unfinished portrait while listening to your podcast. I enjoy the feeling that I'm sitting in the company of two wise sensitive and soulful people who are expressing what the girl in me once felt and am hopeful. These conversations will enable me to reconnect and make that inner landscape bloom like never before. Bittersweet email, I would say. But she also talks earlier about how she wanted to be a writer. I have to say it's such a beautifully written email and I've read you about a quarter of it. So Joyce you need to write more. You need to stay in that room more, I would say. And don't walk on eggshells, paint them. What are your thoughts?
John Muir LawsWow. Or, you know, what, what can you do so that it doesn't feel like I should stay in this room more, but what does it do? Can you do to sort of shift your identity so that staying in that room more is, becomes an accepted part of who you are.
Danny GregoryThat's interesting. So, so by being in there, she's being who she is rather than, but maybe that's what she's wrestling with is she's afraid to bother it. Well,
John Muir Lawsshe, she does all these different things. Like, you know, it's witnesses. I contain multitudes. She tell me her name again,
Danny Gregoryher name is joy L full grin
John Muir Lawsjoy. So it's ironic because joy is, is, is, is the person in that room, creating art. She's also the person who's not in that room. And that, but what can we do so that the part of her identity that sits in that room, painting the eggshells, making art, and then perhaps picking up a piece of paper and starting to write that. We that we give ourselves permission to have that space again, to occupy that space, to say that I'm, I'm a writer, I'm, I'm an artist. This is, this is not just a, not just a valid way for me to spend my time, but this is core to who I am in a way that motivates her to go up again the next day and the next day and the next day. And then a week after that, when other things came up and it kind of got out of the habit to get your, to sort of prompt her to do the work, to get back into the habit again.
Danny GregoryRight. But that's a struggle that we have. I mean, I think hers, and she talks a bit about this earlier in the email. Is, if you identify yourself as an artist, as a writer, it's brings a lot of, a lot of problems along with it in some people's minds, right? If I'm a writer and I have to be published, then I have to worry about, can I make enough money doing it? You know, if I'm an artist or is anybody going to buy my work, all those kinds of things where, so I don't have to deal with that. And that isn't to say that being an artist has to involve that or there being a writer has to involve it. Doesn't, but that's kind of what people often think it involves. And so rather than con front those challenges and try to overcome them, it's better to avoid the identity.
John Muir LawsWell, I guess I'm, I'm thinking about the identity more in terms of not so much in terms of the product, the outcome from it, but more from the action that that person takes. I'm a writer because of. I'm an artist because I'm already and that, that, because that, that I am going to a dentist myself by the action that I take, not whether or not it gets published, not I am a writer simply due to the fact that I chose to sit down and write. And I gave that in the precious few hours that I have during the day, I blocked out a little box of time to make some special room for that.
Identity can contain multitudes
John Muir LawsI made it a private.
Danny GregoryYeah. And I think, and I think your identity, if you, your identity, as you said, can contain multitudes. You, you can be, you can say, I drive and therefore I'm a driver. You can say, I'm a dad because I have kids. You can say, I cooked a grilled cheese sandwich. So therefore I'm a cook, you know, you can, that's what I keep coming back to is that art doesn't have to be the overwhelming identity, you know, and that art doesn't and while making art makes you an artist, I think being an artist in your life is is a perspective, right? It's a point of view that you can do everything with, you can make a grilled cheese sandwich. As an artist, you know, you can be a parent. It certainly as an artist, right? That you can combine the art, being an artist point of view, a problem solver, somebody who combines more than one thing to create something new, all those things that I think helped to make you an artist that doesn't necessarily have to just be, because you're up in your room, painting eggshells, that's not the only thing, you know, it can be something that you can be while being other things. And none of it really has to do with how you make money. That's kind of a weird sort of minimal part of it, of the whole identity thing. But I think a lot of times I agree with you that I think a lot of times, the reason that we don't even want to start doing it is because we have these associations with that identity that are so fraught. So fraud. History and you know, other people's points of view and ghosts and all these other things that we're afraid by doing this thing, we will become that thing. And that thing is terrifying. But instead by doing it, you can become a new version of that thing and your version of what it is to be an artist. And that could be positive and joyful.
John Muir LawsI didn't really follow the ghosts part
Danny Gregoryghosts. You know, she's talking about like my father or my third grade teacher said this about that when I wanted to do this. Ah, right. So you're dragging along these ancient voices of people who may be long dead and who may have said something thoughtlessly and probably didn't even mean it, but it resonated so dramatically with you when you were seven or 14 or whatever that you're dragging that ghosts around with. You know, clanking its chains in and drowning out this voice inside of you because you're afraid of it. You know? So you're afraid that, that your dad was right, that if this, if you pursue this thing, you will be, you know, destroying your future or you will be, you know, leading yourself down some path that you can't combat from. That's the ghost that you're haunted by
John Muir Lawsthe those, those, those voices can be absolutely paralytic, which just sort of another reminder to us to, to be intentional about the way that we interact with other people around their art and to realize that, you know, we have, we have faced th there, there are, there are countless times that I have done things that are. Are not thoughtful, not, not, if I really kind of put my mind to it, that would not have been the right way to do it or said things that that were, were hurtful were damaging. And that, and, and I have also heard messages that were damaging from all sorts of other people. So what I want to do is if I'm going to kind of go, go forward I have to remember that, you know, all those, those, those comments that are coming through that's, that's just, it's it's because, because human beings are. Imperfect human beings
Negative feedback
John Muir Lawsare foolish, jealous, greedy, beautiful, wonderful, hopeful, hopeless, all those things. It's just part of the, the, the human condition. You're, you're going to, you're going to get really bad advice from human beings, and you're also going to get wonderful, beautiful advice from them. But isn't it, isn't it amazing how we often curate those voices and, and collect the voices that tell us that we can't.
Danny GregoryYeah, because we have a predisposition to that, right? I mean, that's a, that's almost a neurological thing, which is we take negative feedback much more seriously than positive feedback is negative feed, right? Cause negative feedback. It's like the brakes on your car. It's more important in some ways in the accelerator. Right. The brakes in your car will stop you from having a disastrous experience, stop you from dying. You know, whereas the accelerator makes you, makes you go faster in that same direction. Maybe you don't need that much. So I think, I think in general, we take negative feedback, resonates much more. It effects, it effects us particularly greater people because in some ways it may be more important. Maybe like the warning on, you know, on the bottle that says this is poison. That may be more important than it tastes good. So I think that, that's why we take that stuff more seriously, but, you know, I mean, I see it from the comments and feedback that I get by putting stuff out in public that the vast majority of people are supportive, but then you hear the ones that are negative, right? That's I think that's the Sarnia. I think it's really hard to be, to just ignore it. And I think it's even more so when those voices are from people who meant a lot to you and your past, that's true. If your parents says something to you, that means a lot more to you than if a stranger does.
John Muir LawsAnd you know, when you are, when you're a little kid everything that you know, you, you look at grownups as w we don't understand that w we don't have the perspective that, you know, they're, they're, they're also these impro perfect people who are just doing the best they can and trying to get by. We think that they are they've somehow got the answer. And if they say yeah, that, that that's, that's, that's not right. That's not good. You're not right. That you're not good. That's gonna say.
Danny GregoryRight. Yeah, because that's, I mean, it's essential. You want, you're counting on those people to guide you through your life, right? I mean, that's what your role at your parents have when you're young. You can't just ignore what their input is. That's their current, their job. Even if they're deeply flawed individuals who are leading you astray let me switch to a related, but a different point, which is from Connie McConnell. She talked, she talks about various things, which she says, one of the things is that re really resonated with her from one of our earlier episodes was the power of yet. She said, I don't meet people. Right. She says I don't paint people yet. But I have a photo of my late mother. I want to try, I may not paint people now, but soon I will be trying, I don't paint still life yet, but there are subjects I keep thinking about. And soon I will work on these subjects all in my own way or process. The concept of yet keeps me grounded. It reminds me that those who are instructing me often have far more experience that I'm not going to be as good yet. I can work toward that point though. So that was a thank you. Your, your insight was that yet?
John Muir LawsYeah, the the it's, it's not, I, I can't take credit for the insight. I in, in that case, standing on the, on the shoulders of, of Carol Dweck and Joe bowler, who are. We talked
Danny Gregorywe talked about them during the episode that we did about, about growth
John Muir Lawsmindset, growth mindset, you know? Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's where the, the, the, the idea of yet kind of really crystallizes into something that is functional, useful, not something that's, it's kind of woo, woo. But something that I can go out and apply today. It is it's something that I, that I kind of look for opportunities to get Yeti with. My, my, my daughter is any chance I get when you have an opportunity for a good yet We,
Pressure of painting portraits
John Muir Lawswe, we, we talk about it. We laugh about it.
Danny GregoryWell I was also going to say the one thing that struck out to me about Connie's admission was that she still seems kind of results oriented. She says, I have a photo of my late mother. I want to try. And I would just say, if you hang your desire to paint people on just that that's very specific project. I want to do a painting of my mother. That that could be troublesome for you. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's kind of like saying, I wanna, I wanna like have a kitchen because I really want to make, I really want to have a particular fried chicken. It's like, well, you don't build a kitchen around that. And I think similarly it's like, if you want to paint people and then you, the first thing you do. Take a photo of your late mother and try and paint that. And that's the first painting that you're doing of a person. Boy, that's got a lot riding on it and there's a lot of pressure there. Yeah. And
John Muir Lawsthen you say, I can't do that. I can't
Danny Gregorypaint people.
John Muir LawsI mean, if we didn't have noses, just think how easier, much easier it would be if there weren't noses. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that's, that's very good thing to kind of pull out from that, is that what you, the, the, the mindsets that will kind of let you embrace this is not to get focused on any particular product, especially one that has so much. Resonance to it. Right. As you know, I want to, you know, show my respect of my mother. Cause then, you know, thinking like, you know, if, if it doesn't come out right, is that somehow is that disrespecting mom? Not a proper tribute to her, but that's, that is a product. What you might do is think about it. I want to use this, use the process of drawing as a way of going through some old family photographs, drawing from those as a celebration of those moments or a celebration of those people. And just to, to be doing it as a, as a way of remembering mom, not so much to do it as a way of getting a good mom. But good mountain portraits come from making lots of drawings. That's what I was
Danny Gregorygoing to say. I was going to say, why don't you make a hundred paintings of your mom? That would be a real good tribute. And that way, if 80 of them sucked, it would matter. You know, I like rather than saying like, okay, I'm going to buy an oil paints and I want it. I want the pain to be big enough to hang over the dining room table. And and I've got I've got to pick out a frame and you just go. It's like, you know what? I think I should go jogging and the Olympics are coming up. So maybe I'll enter you know, just give yourself a break. You know, so yes, maybe one, maybe you will paint a picture of your mother yet, but don't be don't it just feels like a hard, a high initial hurdle to vault over. So
John Muir Lawsanyway, yeah. Also you just, just, just say, you know, you have picked the most difficult subject. All the subjects gets the human face because
Danny Gregoryyour mother's face it's even
John Muir Lawsworse. Yeah, that's right. But you know, if any little nuance and subtle change of expression, you knew exactly what mom was thinking. So any little brush stroke that is off any little line that is over that way, a little bit too far, or alteration in proportion, it's not going to read right. Or you'll be like, you know, the photograph she's happy. My. My, my drawing. She's only kind of she's slightly irritated because your brain picks up all of those micro nuances of human expressions, expressions, there's even a part of your brain that is specifically dedicated to reading human faces and human expressions. It's the, what the fusiform face area, the FFA. So you've got this little FFA sitting there in your brain, and that helps you analyze, you know, the micro-expressions on the person's face as they, as they approach you on the bus and your brain detects. All right, this person is not a threat. This person is, you know, all these sort of things. It's incredibly sophisticated. The result is when we do human faces, we. We are that, that fusiform face area is also kind of getting in there and boy does it, no. Can it critique that, however, you don't do that when you are drawing a Raven, right? That, that region of your brain isn't activated and isn't going to be in there hyper critiquing the shape of that bird.
Danny GregoryI think that it's hard to be objective about what your mother looks like. So I think it would be, it's an even more difficult subject just because you may not be able to see your mother. So, yeah. Anyway, I think we've given her no, but
John Muir Lawsa hundred faces, the hundred faces. What you've got then is a project that is going to get you looking through photo albums and remembering moments. And. You know, looking at different moods and can possibly be more playful and more open to different approaches.
Danny GregoryI've made a painting of my mother and hangs in a gold frame in her house. It's a painting of when she was a kid and she was with her playing with her dog. Yeah, but it was a struggle. Let me see if we have,
Full Moon
Danny Gregorywe have, we have a bunch of other things in the email sack, but how about Sharman Crawford? She asked when the moon appears full for us here in California. Does it also appear full for people on the other side of the earth? Oh, that
John Muir Lawsthat's a really cool question. So we, we had this, I had this moon party. I had people in the Northern and the Southern hemisphere drawing moons. And then the idea was at the moon party everybody would, would call in from these different points and we could show our sketches to each other. In my last moon party, only people from the Northern hemisphere showed up. So that didn't quite work out the way that I had planned. But later on in a subsequent class that I was doing somebody who was there, said, I wasn't able to meet, meet the moon party, but this young man down in Argentina held up his sketches and his name's Kyle and I looked at Giles' sketches and it was the same shape of the moon, but it was flipped from my image.
Danny GregoryThat's what I was going to thought. That's what I was going to say upside down. Right. Because you're seeing it from the other side of this. Yeah.
John Muir LawsYes, that's right. So yeah, if you imagine yourself on a round earth, And you are looking up over at the moon from the Northern hemisphere, you then imagine a person looking at that same moon in the Southern hemisphere, their feet are pointing towards you. Their top of their head is pointing in the opposite direction. You're
Danny Gregoryupside down the moon is this they're upside down.
John Muir LawsAnd so then that image that you're looking at is, is flipped. And that flip that you get in the moon is actually one of the observable phenomenon that is inconsistent with a flat earth theory.
Danny GregoryOne of many things. Yes. So here's another email. From Sarah Long. And you have more to say about Charmaine
John Muir Lawscause I, I got to go on this. So here's what I'm really getting excited about. But, but so yes, the full moon, you seem the same full moon. So the, the phase of the moon is seen by the same phase of the moon is seen by everybody on earth, just from different angles.
Danny GregorySo if it's a Crescent moon, it'll be like, we'll be facing the other direction.
John Muir LawsYep. So it, it what I did is I, I, I if, if you were in the Northern hemisphere and you were to look at, and there's, let's say a Crescent moon rises in the sky and you were to start running south as fast as you could. And you're really, really fast. And you follow the same line and you, you, you, you, you, you run down, you would watch that moon, that rising moon from all of those locations. You'd see that rising moon start to rotate clockwise as you ran down around the other. So it would be halfway there as you're at the equator, and then you keep running down to Antarctica and cause you've got those water running boots. Then the, the, the, the moon's done a full flip, so it'd be
Danny Gregorylike a C and then it becomes like a U and then it becomes like a, whatever the opposite
John Muir Lawsis. Yeah. So the let's say Backwards C then to a, you to a regular C or if you did it at the other phase, it could start as a C going to let's see, regular C to an end to a backwards C fair enough. And then it would rotate the other way if you ran back up really, really fast. And that's, that's pretty cool. So the moon is, and also a lunar eclipse. The lunar eclipse can be seen by everybody on the dark side of the moon, on the Fox side of the earth. So the lunar eclipse is this very democratic event where we all get to experience the lunar. Not so much for a solar eclipse. That's just something for the people who happen to be right in the path of that totality,
Danny Gregoryright? Because our whole planet is casting shadow onto the moon.
John Muir LawsThat is why the whole planet cast a shadow on the moon. The moon is actually in the shadow. So that moon in the shadow is what everybody sees when it's the other way around when the moon is becoming in the solar eclipse, when the moon rocks between, between the earth and the sun, its shadow now drops on the earth, but its shadow is only a small little dot on the face of the moon. So that little shadow travels across the face of the moon. I mean, sorry, the face of the earth. And as it does, if you happen to be lucky enough to be under that shadow, you're like, Ooh, Annular eclipse is coming up in 2023 in October. Something that I'm starting to do is I'm starting to look ahead at, I've gotten some maps out last night of the path of that eclipse. And I'm trying to right now make hotel reservations to be someplace cool in the path of that eclipse. Where would that be? So it's going to start in Oregon. It's going to roll through Utah, New Mexico, and then down to Texas,
Danny GregoryI remember the last one and they showed a map and it had like the thing and people were definitely going to rent Airbnbs or hotels to be in the right place.
John Muir LawsYeah. I was slow on it last time, but this time I figure if I'm more than a year in advance, I've got a chance. And that's, that's, there's a lot of cool spaces in between there. And you know, if you happen to live in Albuquerque, congratulations, you just have to step outside of your house and look up and that'll be cool. So that'll be an annular eclipse,
Danny Gregorywhich what about Phoenix? And we're probably pretty close to it too then.
John Muir LawsWell, you know, it's funny, you should ask I guess you're looking at a map. Well, yeah, I just pulled up a map cause I've still actually got them on my computer. And
Danny Gregoryso your lunar thing is the same as my database thing. I can imagine you on the exercise bike, looking at lunar charts and not feeling bad about it just as I was watching software tutorials.
John Muir LawsI, I could, I could see that. It's, it's just, it's been really, really fun. So Phoenix, you will not be in the path of the full eclipse. You will get a partial eclipse there in Phoenix. If you were to drive up to window rock then you would be able to see the, the, the full annular eclipse. And in that eclipse what's going to happen is at the totality instead of the sun being totally blocked out because the moon is a little bit closer to the sun than it was in the last one. You actually will get a little ring. That'll be the sun is still around the outside edge of it. It'll make a perfect ring. I like round or the sentence that will be, that'll be fun. A little light donut.
Danny GregoryVery nice. Good. Well, you know what? I think we are done. We have more email
John Muir Lawsto answer. We had mentioned there's one other email. They're all,
Danny Gregorythere's a bunch of other emails, but I think I'm going to save
Final Thoughts
Danny Gregorythem for future, for future discussions because because I have the power, I have the Google doc that has the emails on it, but we'll discuss it next time. Next time we've already, we've already discussed what we think we want to talk about. You're going to be doing a very in-depth presentation and you, I hope you bring a poem because everybody says that they like your poems. So try and think of an appropriate poem to go with our discussion, which will be. On a subject suggested by one of our readers or excuse me, one of our listeners. So if you have any suggestions, complaints I don't know, suggestions, complaints, what else is there? Questions,
John Muir Lawsideas, thoughts, ideas, and send
Danny Gregorya poem. If you have a poem, that's good. If you have an idea, there, there, there are a lot of nice things that people have said sent us in terms of resources, we would love to have those too. So just send them to podcast@scheduleschool.com and they will share them in a future episode because we like hearing from you. We like knowing that there's somebody out there. So, all right, with that, it is time for the final. The final Coda. We'll see you next time.
John Muir LawsSee you next time, everybody.