This week John and Danny discuss the purpose and meaning of art in our lives.
From Season 3 of "art for all," the Sketchbook Skool podcast. Join artists/authors, Danny Gregory and John Muir Laws in rich discussions about the creative process.
This week John and Danny discuss the purpose and meaning of art in our lives.
From Season 3 of "art for all," the Sketchbook Skool podcast. Join artists/authors, Danny Gregory and John Muir Laws in rich discussions about the creative process.
Hello, and welcome to art for all the sketchbook school podcast. I am Danny Gregory. I'm a writer and an artist. And a guy who has this podcast with his pal, John Muir laws. Would you like to introduce
John Muir Laws:yourself, Jack? Sure. I'm the pal John Muir laws. And I I'm also a a regular journal keeper wildlife biologist. And and I just have been really having fun with these discussions to kind of bad ideas around with another sort of fellow artist and thinker. So this is
Danny Gregory:going to be fun today. Yeah. That's kind of the idea, you know, so. A couple of days ago I was walking my dog, we were going on a big, long walk and I was listening to my podcast app and it's kind of set up so that like, once you're done with a podcast and it ends, it like clicks to whatever's next in the line. And so was finishing whatever it was. And then it clicked into this podcast, which I've never really listened to before. How did we sound? I was like, that's a pretty good podcast. And I listened to, I listened to it for like the rest of the walk. I was like, oh yeah, that was pretty good. So I don't know nothing like a little self congratulations, but congratulations. I think it's not bad. Have you, have you ever
John Muir Laws:listened to it? I haven't, I haven't. I get to be there for our live thing and
Danny Gregory:yeah, but it's different when you, when it's like it comes on, you know, It's like seeing your own book in a bookshop. Right. I'm sure you've had that experience. You're like, oh yeah, yeah. There are data that guy take a familiar face. It's like, it's like seeing some of you went to high school with something and you're like, oh yeah, there it is. How do you, how do you feel about when you see your old, when you see things that you've created in the past, and you're like, haven't engaged with them for awhile?
John Muir Laws:Ah, I, I think it's, it's such a great opportunity to just reflect on sort of the fundamental ideas of growth mindset so that you look at it like, wow, I was doing that or I finish a drawing and I looked down and I was like, wow, that's the best drawing I've done. And then a little bit later you looked down at a drawing and you go like, wow, that's, that's drawing. I've done. That means that other one isn't anymore, which means you've gotten better between them now. And would you open up an old sketchbook? It's the same thing. So in terms of my, my art kind of critique, it's fun for me too. See like, oh yeah. I, I wasn't really pushing values then. And then at this point I started doing that and look, it makes the drawing better, but also because most of my stuff is a journal entries and sketchbook and the notebook entries. It's also just this invitation to revisit that moment and to think about what I was thinking about. And it sort of, it's wonderful the way it takes you back so vividly.
Danny Gregory:But what about, oops, that's your phone? There we go. So what did your parole officer want anyway? I think that is an interesting idea. I mean, I, I certainly. Don't have the experience of every drawing I do being like, this is the best drawing I've ever done. There's often like these
John Muir Laws:are the worst I've ever done. Yeah. But, but some just went when you get that, that feeling like, like, wow, this one really worked. You know, that puts a, I also want to acknowledge that. Yeah. There's tons and tons of ones that I do. Like that one. Isn't that one isn't that isn't. And then there'll be times where you kind of feel like where you're really trying to make it work and it does. And then that is then sort of that point in my development.
Danny Gregory:The hold on a second. Good Lord. Right. That's my neighbor who my neighbor has a wood shop in his backyard. And every so often he just decides that he's going to build like a set of dining room chairs or something. I don't know what he's been doing in there anyways. So going back to, to what you're saying,
John Muir Laws:That. Yes. Yeah. Every drawing isn't better than the next one. So it's, it's, you know, it's this, this staggered, it's the staggered experience, but you know, sometimes when when a drawing is really working for me you know, I'll realize that, you know, I'll, I'll look back at it at an old drawing and I'll realize that when I did that, that was the best drawing that I could do at that time. And I'm better now. And it's just neat to see how there's, there's no point in your life where you're done developing the skill where it's like, and there's the masterpiece and scene because you're constantly, Newing knowing for being new things and incorporating new ideas into the approach that you have. I, I love to see that reflected in my ability to draw and. And again, it's just so much fun to be able to revisit those experiences in the past.
Danny Gregory:I also have what I called gross mindset, which is when you make something and you think it's gross. So you say, oh, what like, will I ever do a good drawing again? Or a, have I have I just, I finally lost it. I finally just I'm done well.
John Muir Laws:And isn't it interesting that after all this time and you know, like people would people say, well, Danny Gregory, you know, he's the sketchbook school guy, you know, you've, you've got, you know, so many drawings under your belt that w people would assume that that kind of that, that inner critic. You you'd be somehow free of that, but, but you to have to face down that voice that sort of is telling us, you know, that you know, who, who do you think you're fooling? Pencil again.
Danny Gregory:Yeah. I mean, sometimes deservedly. So I mean, sometimes, you know, I mean, Michael Jordan I'm sure had off days, you know, everybody isn't no matter how experienced you are, no matter what you've accomplished. You're not always there. You're not always, you're not always present. You know, there are a lot of things that can get in the way and you know, sometimes, I mean, I think that that's, that is a, it's a struggle. I mean, I, I don't know about you, but I certainly go through periods where I, I don't draw for awhile or I don't make anything. Right. Or, and if I do do a drawing, it just seems like, oh, I just don't know if I want to face the fact that I suck. I just not in the mood to do. So, let me just let me just like step away from it and forget the whole thing for, for a bit. And, you know, I mean, I recognize that that's me now, today here, this person, it doesn't necessarily mean that I will be that person tomorrow or a month from now or a year from now. It's not, I don't know that that's growth mindset. Exactly. Maybe it is, but I think it's just sort of a recognition that, you know, sometimes you get up in the morning and your, you know, your back hurts and and sometimes you spring out of bed, who knows why, but yeah,
John Muir Laws:and I think people assume that I draw every day and that how, but, but sometimes I don't and sometimes there are, like you're saying there are big spells where my journal just is sitting there. I think for me, probably part of that is. Kind of maybe more of a depression related today. When my, you know, it's, it's hard to get myself to motivate, to do anything, anything creative or otherwise. And of course it's the best thing that I can do is to kind of go out into nature and lose myself in a poppy. I do that depression is probably going to lift, but you know, a depression has got it. Suit of armor on, it says like, no, don't go exercise. Don't go do those things that are going to make this cloud lift. That
Danny Gregory:the poppy comment through me, I hope that's not where you go to a,
oh,
John Muir Laws:oh. Not, not that I see how that could be.
Danny Gregory:No. He seen the gong hitting the gong going to,
John Muir Laws:no, this would be rolling up on an a Schulty a California with my sketchbook in my hand and drawing and sketching and observing it. And I like to go sketch poppies because I've sketched them so many times and every time I draw them, there's some thing new that I'm learning about. Poppiness and so it is a, it's a great way to it's a, it's a it's, it's a meditation in. In flower form and they also move fast. Poppies can move fast. If we are drawing a poppy in the morning, you start your preliminary sketch, and then you start going over that and you work out the details on that pedal. Then you realize all the other pedals have totally moved since the time that you started sketching. And then in the afternoon they do the same thing. They all close up and they go, so it's, it's a, that's a fast moving flower there.
Danny Gregory:Interesting, interesting. So first of all, I want to say to people, we are okay, as we w what we normally do with this podcast is we set a theme and then we pursue it and see where it takes us. But today we've decided to do something a bit different, which is to just do more of a sort of miscellaneous grab bag kind of thing, where we ask each other questions about whatever we want to it's called, ask me anything. And I will ask Jack something and then he will, it will be his turn to ask me something and we'll go back and forth that way. It's also your opportunity to ask us things too, because you can email us@podcastatsketchbookschool.com and you can ask us whatever you want and we may or may not answer it depending on how interesting a question it is. But if we do, we will answer it in future episodes. So,
John Muir Laws:yeah, that was, I was wondering how we're going to break the time-space continuum there, but yes, a future episode we were. Yes.
Danny Gregory:So yeah. So you ask us a question, email it to podcast@sketchbookschool.com that school with a K and we'll see what happens. Okay. So do you want
John Muir Laws:to go first or shall I get, yeah, well, just to kind of continue in this, this, this theme sort of when you are off, what do you do to kind of get back on and into.
Danny Gregory:Yeah, I don't really have a set solution. I mean, I find that a lot of it, as we were saying before, a lot of it has to do with kind of a larger mood. How are you feeling? Are you? Cause when you're depressed, you can give into depression, which means that everything's hopeless and pointless, but you can also sometimes say, you know what? The cure for depression is to break out of it. I'm not the cure, but a way that I deal with it is to, to just try and start doing something, doing something and it can begin with looking at other artists work. You know, looking at a book that I haven't looked at for a while looking at Instagram, but that can also be that can also work the other direction too, depending on your state of mind, it can make you feel even worse. Right. Everybody's doing everything that also grade they're so cool. I suck they're sketching today. Exactly. I suck even worse than they. So another solution is to do something completely other, you know so writing instead of drawing and, you know, writing and writing can sometimes be prey to the same demon, but then I find that stream of consciousness can help just doing like a morning pages, kind of purging, sluicing out the pipes, cleaning, you know your, your depression by, by moving and making something happen. Taking a walk can help. But not always. Yeah. Taking a walk can help her, but I feel, but I think a lot of the problem is the word should, should you should draw more. You should really be drawing. Shouldn't you be drawing? When was the last time you did something in your schedule? Maybe you should do remember when you used to do a lot more of it, maybe sh all those kinds of sherds like it can really rattle me when I'm like writing about something. I'm like this fantastic thing. And then somebody will say, that sounds great. You should draw it. I'm like I should. Yeah. Like I'm a guy who draws, like I'm known for drawing, so I should really draw it. And I'm working on some ideas for books right now, and I'm thinking I should illustrate them, but I want, I'm really into this other thing. I'm into writing and thinking about thinking in writing terms. So no. And I, and I don't want to should anything. So I haven't really answered your question because I'm right now at a period where I do, I do draw at least two or three times a week because I kind of have to cause I should draw. Cause I'm doing draw with me or art before breakfast or some of the other things that I do. So I have to show up and draw, like I can't not draw, cause that would be pathetic. So I do do something and I draw, but I think probably the best solution is to just play. And that can mean just like getting out some non professional art supplies, crayons big brush pens, maybe some guash and just slathering around and just kind of making some stuff that can often break the spell by just feeling like, okay, I'm doing something. Yeah, exactly. Just make something you make her lousy, even something lousy or something, whatever it's just getting. It's kind of like pulling the, that machine out of the shit, taking the drop cloth off it, starting it up and seeing like, you know, getting it going. W what's your, what's your
John Muir Laws:deal? Well, you actually mentioned some of the things that work really well for me. One is just getting out side, going outside even better if I can go outside and get some exercise and even better, if I can go outside, get some exercise in nature, the, you know, just the, the sunshine, the vitamin D you know, feeling the, the, the, the warmth on my skin. Getting my heart rate up and getting my, my, my, my, my brain oxygenated, and then being in nature itself brings me into a state of calm, just being around trees. It doesn't have to be in a national park. It can be in a little urban park just some little place where I can get near in the presence of natural things. And that for me, really helps me change my, my state of mind. And then if I can get myself curious about something that whenever I find a little mystery, I. My, my instinct is to, to just grab my journal and go on the deep dive. Well, what's going on here and try to figure it out and try to put down as many clues as I can on a piece of paper. So if curiosity happens, then there are, there's going to be journal pages that follow, and if journal pages are foe or following, then I am probably going to get into a flow state and just lose myself in whatever is going on there. So I let the curiosity sort of hook me into the journal.
Danny Gregory:I like that. I like that
John Muir Laws:another thing that I can do is just sort of on that curiosity note is that if I get my self, if I sort of onto a project where you know, we've talked before about, you know, I'm, I'm doing a deep dive on the moon. And then it just sort of gets me out again and again and again, and I'm focusing on this project instead of whatever kind of inner I'm ruminating about and the marvelous things going on with the moon, then pull me out of that state that is wallowing inwardly and more rejoicing outwardly.
Danny Gregory:Yeah. I think the projects are really, really useful. I mean, I think because they, what they do is they overcome that first, really large step, which is what should I do? Right. So you can get out your art supplies and you can set them all up on your table. And then you're like, okay, now what, what do I do with it? When you have a project, you say, well, this is the thing that I'm doing. I don't need to think about that. And also another thing about projects that I like a lot is no. Particular phase of the project necessarily has to be the most important one or like you can, in other words, you can screw up one phase or one step, right? So you can say, I'm going to draw, you know, chickens every day. And I have a plan for it every day I go and I find a chicken or a Google, a chicken, and that's what I do. And then you do a chicken and the chicken is terrible. And he goes, yeah, but I've drawn 50 chickens before I'm going to draw another 50 chickens. So yeah, this one is fine, you know, it's like, well, I have conversations like that with my wife who she'll say that was a really bad meal. And I'll say like, yeah, but it was just like, it was just one lunch. Like, I don't care, just say, but, but you know, like it wasn't like the bread wasn't really right. I said, I don't, I got eaten and I'm moving on, you know? And I think you can have that attitude towards drawing, which is like, it's just, it's just the same. You'll have other sandwiches. Some will be better. Some will be worse. It didn't kill you, but at least you ate something move on. Yeah.
John Muir Laws:So I really like how you're framing that. So when you've got a project, this drawing is, is one in a process and you're aware of that larger Mehta process as opposed to getting focused on that chicken.
Danny Gregory:Right? Right. Yeah. Cause it's it's project is about the, is about the accumulation of stuff. A lot of times, right? It's about lots of different things. And if you look at you know, if you had a a gallery show where you drew showed a hundred chickens, the point would be a hundred chickens wouldn't whereas if you had a gallery show which had one chicken. I better be a good checker that would have to be a hell of a
John Muir Laws:chicken. That's a hell of a check-in you ground.
Danny Gregory:Right? Exactly. And so similarly, like when you're working on, on looking at the phases of the moon, I'm sure there's some days where like not much happens or you didn't really notice anything particularly interesting, and that doesn't make the whole thing worthless.
John Muir Laws:That's right there, there, sometimes when I'm sketching the moon and I've got a circle with a line across it, basically showing the angle that the Crescent was at, and there's no detail of craters or anything like that, it's just this sort of stand in for what was the angle? What was the amount of the surface that was illuminated and, and I'm done,
Danny Gregory:right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the things I'm working on now is. I'm trying to write little tiny books. So rather than writing, like the book, I'm trying to write like little tiny books and a book that could be maybe 20 pages long or, you know have just four or five kind of interesting thoughts in it. And that be that a book that you could read in, you know, 20 minutes, half an hour. It's not a, I'm not trying to write the book anymore. I'm trying to write just stuff that I find of interest now, and to make them into books that anybody can just easily buy or not even not even pay for. That's another thing I'm trying to experimenting with this don't sh books. Or booklet, you pay whatever you want to for it. That's, what's kind of amazed me. Like I just made this book and I put it out there and whole bunch of people paid for it. And I was like, no, no, no, it's a free book. But I gave them the option. Like, just because it was built into the platform that I was distributing the book with. I said, you know, pay whatever you want. It was like just the thing. And so a lot of people paid for it and I thought, wow, like that's a really startling thing. But it also meant that if I had written a book, it was like, okay, this book is going to be like 1995 at Barnes and noble. I would have been working on that thing for years. And I don't know that it would necessarily would have been any better. And I probably don't think it would have been that much more fun. And these kinds of little like mini books.
John Muir Laws:Tell me what was your most recent mini book about?
Danny Gregory:So I just wrote a mini book and it's called never feel guilty about making art. It was just like some are essays that I've written recently. I'm working on a book now called how to learn to draw and why you should. I have another book that I'm working on called the seven deadly sins of creativity. None of these are good enough or big enough, or elaborate enough to actually be books that are published by publishers and do all that stuff. But they're just like, man, it's, it's more than just a little essay. It's more of a bigger thought. So make it into a book and then, you know, the economic part of it will figure itself out. I don't care. You know, so I don't know. I mean, we may, I may sort of develop more elaborate thing. I have a bigger idea, which is kind of an aggregation of a lot of things that I've been writing about trying to sort of be a bit more systematic about that. And but I'm doing it in part this bigger project I'm doing in part, because I want to see what it's like to be, have a bigger project and be organized in putting together this bigger project and see what that's like. And if I like it, so like really trying to have a structure and really maybe getting feedback on ideas before I get too far in writing and, and kind of crowdsourcing response to. Half written, half drafts of things, just to see what that experience will be like. Cause it will be very different than just dealing with a publisher.
John Muir Laws:And w what I like here is also just, you are intentionally giving yourself all these different experiences, and I'm just sort of imagining like what that process is like in your brain. So you're, you're doing QuickBooks because QuickBooks make you think in a different way. You're doing the big project book because doing the big project book, we'll get you to think in a way that's different than that. And or, or from that. And the, and I think very often sort of shaking up your mental Etch-a-Sketch like that is just, is a good practice you're out of. There is no routine and that does seem like a platform for some. Creative outcomes. And also like your, your, this, this, this free book supported by people who can pay for it. That's sort of what I've been doing with, with my online classes at the start of the pandemic. I started teaching every week, three online workshops and there were all free and I created a donation portal where people, they were able to support me, I would say, you know, please do. But if I know that a lot of people like people are losing their jobs and that you like that you really need you some art and some nature time. And but what was so surprising to me, Is first of all, how many people were kind of hungry for that kind of community, which you've probably seen also with sketchbook school. But also all these folks stepped up to be patrons to support me doing that work. And it was, it was incredible. And so that stuff is then it's out that your book is then out there and accessible to anybody who needs it. And it also helps you then have the financial stability for the next creative project and the next creative project after that.
Danny Gregory:Yeah. I mean, I think we live in a strange time for creativity because it is much in some ways, easier to find an audience. Right. As opposed to the days of publishing was the only way to get a book out there. Or then you had to go on book tours and you had to go on the today show, if you were lucky and you had to do what you went through, all that process. And you're kind of beholden to this big corporation as to whether or not they decided you are worth investing in. And now you can just find people who like what you do and you can share what you're thinking with them directly without having to have a middleman. But everything is free. Now. There's so much content that's free that people don't, people feel like they're overwhelmed, but with content anyway, I think they feel like I can't possibly read all the things I'd like to read. I can't possibly watch all the videos, listen to all the podcasts is just too much of it. Anyway, so, and that's the free stuff. So now you're seeing like, why would I pay for it? Why would I pay for stuff? On top of it all, you know, cause and like is the paid stuff going to be better? Is that what it is? It used to be that like the publisher was the kind of gatekeeper that has sh ensured that the stuff was better, but it isn't necessarily better. It isn't necessarily better. So, so why should I pay? Well, I think the reason to pay is in part, because you want that person to make more stuff isn't necessarily because you feel like you have to pay for it in a quid pro quo. I pay you for this thing. You give me that thing. That's the normal capitalist transaction. Right, right. As opposed to I pay this so that you, because AI want to show you that I support you. And B I want to tell you that you should do more of this. And this is a way of me doing that. So yeah. I want to be engaged in it. Right. When you contribute to an artist. You're a participant in a way in that process.
John Muir Laws:Absolutely. Absolutely.
Danny Gregory:And in a way that's very different than just like a thumbs up a like on social media that costs you, nothing. You sit, you're saying like, I'm willing to make a little bit of a contribution to this. And I think that then the artists feels like, oh, like somebody cares about this. Like I'm not just doing this, you know, in a V in a vacuum. So it isn't necessarily that the artist is going to make enough money to live exclusively on that, but it's a way of voting in a sense. But I think we've gotten so out of touch with that. I mean, I have so many people who write to me who say basically, how dare you charge for what you do. I can get all this stuff for free. And I say, yeah, I guess, I guess, you know, what I'm realizing in that is I'm not making this for you, I
John Muir Laws:guess. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Those, those, those people out there. I think they're looking at it the wrong way. The. Well, there's a value judgment. That's interesting. I, I think those people are looking at it in a way that doesn't build them, connect them to community and there's an, and, and is outside of a relationship. And so there's the there's the relationship that is that, that, you know, there's some things that you have to pay. You got to pay your taxes. There are some things that you choose to to, to pay for. But if you want those things, you have to pay, it's a book that costs this amount of money. And then there is, there is the person who is creating things and it's valuable to you and you choose, I'm going to go out there. I'm going to, I'm going to support. And I am going to I, I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's wonderful that this is because this is something that I want to be in the world with me and I want, and there's there's then a relationship between you and the artist and that's, that is that's it's by choice. It feels really different than if I have to pay this amount to get your album it's that I am choosing to I am, I'm choosing to be in a relationship this person, but then you also want to if that person is you know, doing things that really light up your world to think of like, how can you continue to support that person? So sometimes we feel good, you know, I make a one-time donation to something. It's, but if I want that relationship to, to perpetuate, if I'm able to I want to go back and be, and support them another time in another way, and then another time in another way, or maybe the same way. You know, so you know, are, am I able to, to be there long-term for these things that I, I value and something that is just been so inspiring to me in just sort of what I saw with the response to the work, the creative work, which I was putting out during the pandemic is that people stepped up into that space and they supported me and they've continued to do it.
Danny Gregory:Yeah. And your support has become a factor in what you mean. Like in other words, you, because you know that somebody out there who likes what you're doing is gaining something from it. It motivates you to make more of it. You're also getting feedback from those people as to what they like more on what, what they want you to investigate further. And you're also getting, you know, you're also noticing what gets less response. So that that's certainly a thing. But I think certainly when people vote with their pocket books, it helps. It's not that it's not, you just feel like they're, they may be, are a bit more meaningful in their, in their support. But I also don't want to make it about money. Cause I certainly have a lot of people who say to me I don't have the money to give you anything and I'll say, but I like you anyway. And I'll say, okay, well I'm not going to not give you stuff because of that, that would be, I'm not going to say, well, you know, If you can't pay, I'm sorry. That's just the way it's going to be. You know, I think it's more like if you look at like public radio or public television, they'll do those in intolerable, draw fun, drives every so often where they're giving you a tote bag and they're going on and on and on and interrupting their regular programming to beg for money. And it's just, I think their thought is like, okay, ventrally, you're just going to give in and give us some money. But, and I assume that it works cause they'd keep doing it right. And I'm sure they've had a lot of sort of consultants come in and say, is that the way, is this the best way to raise funds? But I think, I think they're also trying to say, this is your station. This is your station. That's what you know, and that's the trouble to
John Muir Laws:remind us of that relationship between the products that they're creating, the creative product and that patronage. And that is. Something for both the, for both the creative and the patron to sort of, to, to, to, to remember. And the, but, but as, as you're saying that, you know, also there, there are people that cannot afford to give you a, a financial gift. So it's something it's one of the really wonderful, meaningful parts of this experience for me has also been when I, when I've talked about sort of fundraising things, I've, I've said to my community, like if it, if it's possible to, to support me, you know, doing this, you know, please, please do. But if you're not able to do this at this time, please consider to, you know, doing an act of kindness or of stewardship in your community or you're in environment that you otherwise might not have done because of the value that you're getting from this. And I've got, oh, it's, it's, it's beautiful. I've gotten letters and emails from people that are just sort of saying, you know, here's, I don't have, I don't have money to support you. The stuff that you're doing is really valuable to me. And I just wanted you to know that this is something that I did because you're doing this and, you know, people there's, there's a picture of this, this, this family standing on a beach and they've got these sacks of trash that they've picked up because they enjoyed and got value out of the nature journaling program that. There are there's another person in there told me of, because of this she had essentially adopted an elder down the street during the pandemic and was doing all her grocery shopping for her. And that sort of discussion that we had we'd had on one of these these, these, these, these, these forums, those teaching sort of made her think about that relationship. And she decided to do that.
Danny Gregory:That, that for me is
John Muir Laws:huge. Right. That's that's amazing. But so an act and then think of the relationship between that, that patron and that artist. That artist then inspired that person to go do something kind and beautiful that otherwise wouldn't have happened in the world just became a better place because of that. That's huge.
Danny Gregory:And I think the flip side of this is art for too long has been the, the domain of the rich and the powerful, wealthy people are the people who buy art through the history of at least the last 500 years of civilization, the church government. Those are the things that funded artists, right? Not the average person. So when artists make art, that's who they're thinking about. Like, it's always bored me to go to a museum and you see. A few galleries full of portraits of, Meisters you know, or, you know, sort of self-satisfied looking wealthy Dutch people from the 18th century. That was, that were, that were the subjects of the great artists. Because that's, that's who, that's, who they painted. So you, so you look at this work and you go, okay, here's a painting that has been in a museum now for a couple of hundred years. It wasn't this rich person's house. It ended up in a museum. This museum is going to protect it and preserve it for future generations. And it's a portrait of some fat, rich guy who was able to hire this artist. And so he's, and he now lives on in history. Like that is what he got for his investment. And there haven't been a lot of artists, you know, like Bruegel, let's say. Actually depicted the lives of regular people, but art has, yeah. Art's been made for yeah. Or Kings. Right. You see, you see portraits of Kings, you see, you know, and so art was the domain of the wealthy and or of the church, which is also another way of talking about power and you know, it's, that's what artists had to do. That's, that's what they've had to do. I would think that we're beyond that. I mean, now you can go to a museum and you can see all this art that was locked up behind the castle walls, but you may need to pay 25 bucks to go and see it. Write a ticket to a big show at a big museum is now a really expensive thing. I don't know when that started. Not that long ago when suddenly that became again, a domain of privilege, but you know, I think that the internet has democratized. Art more so, you know so it is possible for an artist or a musician or a writer to, to just deal with the people who care about what they do and not deal with some intermediary power structure, you know, that you can have a one-to-one relationship. And I think that that changes the art that you dare to make, because I think that if the only people who will pay you to make paintings are rich and powerful people, surely the fact that that's your subject is gonna. Restrict you in some way. Yeah. Right. You're not going to be there's things you don't make paintings of because nobody wants to buy that. Nobody wants to buy the things that may be the truly meaningful things to you. The things that you actually have to express something really powerful about, because honestly, if you're painting wealthy society, people, I don't know how deep your feeling is going to be about that. And that's going to limit the Arthur you're making. So again, it's not universally true. And I know that if you're listening to this, you're probably thinking I can think of a thousand exceptions to this, but I think this is the essential part of it, which is, is that if artists can make art about the things that truly mean something to them, that will mean something to the people who look at the art too. And they will be conveying messages that are much, much more of a revelation than how they feel about. Some woman in a big dress.
John Muir Laws:Yes. And then I would also add to that, that the idea of something that you're a lot of your work as, as, as well of mine is devoted to is the, it is not just that creating art to create a product, but that process itself of creating art is intrinsically valuable. And we want to make that experience also more accessible to everybody. So not only is art itself, the products of art are more accessible out there, but that we want to invite people into the process of making art because. Truly transforms, how we see how we think and is, is is it the process itself is, is an intrinsic value.
Danny Gregory:Yeah, I think the art world capital a art world, galleries, museums, wealthy people, their interest is scarcity in art. They want art to be a commodity, which has value because of its rareness. Yes. There's only so many paintings by this artist. There's only so many artists who have gotten to the point where they can have a gallery show. They want to treat it like a rare commodity. And so they're not interested in you making art, right? They're not that that is a hobbyist. That is, you know folk art that is, you know, outsider, art, all those kinds of pejorative terms that are applied to it, the idea that, you know, and so, but, but they've also set the terms by which we judge art. So if you say to somebody, somebody says to you, what are you? And you say, I'm an artist. They'll say, how much do your paintings sell for what gallery are you represented by? Where would I go to see your work? That's right. Which has any relevance to the fact that you're an artist. If you write a book and you say I'm an author, a really did you write a bestseller? Where would I buy your book? What do you write books about? Those kinds of questions are all dictated by this structure that says you know, we need to pigeon hole you and we need to put a price tag on what you make in order to give it validity. And you know, we can take that back and we can say no, that's that has nothing to do with why I do what I do. So democratizing the making of art, as well as the distribution of art is something that we now have the power to do. I mean, I sound like I'm sort of at the barricades and you know, some kind of like long-haired freak sort of rallying people against power structure. That's not really my point. My point is that that making art is. It's a great way of being happy, a great way of dealing with yeah. So, so why should that be the domain of the few? Why can't we all do it? Every six-year-old kid does it, why can't every 60 year old man do it? You know, why can't we all make art and not be in any way restricted by this irrelevant marketplace that you know, and that marketplace extends to art schools, writing schools, publishing houses, all those things and says, you know, we're going to have all kinds of gatekeepers that are going to decide whether or not somebody has the ability to do this thing or not, or is going to be granted that permission it's nonsense. You know, you can pick up a pencil and you can draw, you don't need permission from anybody.
John Muir Laws:I wholeheartedly agree with that so that it's, it's not it is not the, the, the product. It, I would say that the, the, the, the, the, the product that let's define it by the process that you know, your, your artist, if you, if you, if you, you pick up your, your, your journal and you make some art, and it's what then qualifies as art there's there's let me be intentionally circular here. So then what is art? Well, that's the stuff that is made by those artists over there. Arting and it's, it's that process, that's the critical thing. And so don't think that my product doesn't meet some standard And therefore isn't art. Oh, I'm just a dabbler. Oh, I'm not that you know. Oh, no, you're doing art. That's your, your, your, your now let that be who you are, what you're doing. And don't have some kind of criteria for what what is or isn't. But but I would say, give yourself, maybe there's some, some mindset things in here. What then is an artist? Well, it's the kind of the end product that you're making, I would say has less to do with it. I would say more of those, those processes themselves of you are. Venturing into this skill that is expanding and it's expanding you. What, how would, how would you define the, this art making process? Have you ever, have you ever defined it?
Danny Gregory:Well, it's funny because I was reading this book this weekend which I, which is called the art of asking by Amanda Palmer. It's a fairly well-known book. Now. She gave a famous Ted talk. She's a musician, who's with a band called the Dresden dolls. And she wrote this book, which is about how artists can artists are hesitant to ask it somehow seems to. Subvert what they're doing that they're ashamed to ask. And she says, she wrote, I just want to read you a little piece of this book. She says you may have a memory of when you first as a child started connecting the dots of the world, perhaps outside on a cold spring day school field trip, mud on your shoes, mentally strained from the given tasks at hand, as you began to find patterns and connections where you didn't notice them before, you may remember being excited by your discovery, and maybe you held them up proudly to the other kids saying, did you ever notice that this looks like this shifted, this leaf look like the cracks in this puddle of ice, which looks like the veins on the back of my hand, which looked like the hair stuck to the back of her sweater, collecting the dots and then connecting. And then sharing the connections, those around you. This is how creative human works collecting, connecting, sharing. And then she goes on to say the impulse to connect the dots and to share what you've connected is the urge that makes you an artist. If you're using words or symbols to connect the dots, whether you're a professional artist or not, you are an artistic force in the world.
John Muir Laws:Wait, say that again. Say that last
Danny Gregory:line again. She says, if you're using words or symbols to connect the dots, whether you're a professional artist or not, you are an art artistic force in the world. So basically we are artists are people who notice and make connections, you know? So you could be a standup comedian. You could be. Somebody who's a writer. You could be a filmmaker, you could be a musician, or those could just be parts of your life. You know, you could be just a person who notices things. And that is a form of art as well. You know, it has nothing to do with whether it's bought or sold it's to do with how you see the world that you notice that that is, it is all integrated, that there are similarities. There are connections. I mean, we were having this conversation a few episodes ago about creativity in nature. And you know, to me, like I like when picking, when I'm writing, I like to come upon ideas and then form connections between them and then kind of illustrate them with my own experiences and try and just draw themes together that make life richer. Make you realize that there is. That there's patterns to things that there's similarities that there's the lessons that are learned in one part of the universe somehow apply to things that go on in a very different part of the universe, noticing that, and that, that delight that you get that charge, you get a saying like, you know, it's kind of like this, like to me, it's like metaphors, you know, I love metaphors and analogies. I think that they're, you know, you're just, instead of just living life, as it comes to you, you are weaving it together and you are making making something of it all. That's what makes art now, do you have talent for that? Do you? I don't know. There's just so many things that just have nothing to do with that, but it's a really delightful experience and, and you'll see it when you hang out with a little kid and they ask you all these questions, cause they're noticing this stuff, right. They're noticing things and they're seeing. They're discovering it for the very first time, this world that they've suddenly been dropped into, they're seeing these forces, they're seeing these, these structures and you know, sometimes they're wildly imaginative and they really delightful in that. That's why we laugh. Right. That's what we laugh at a joke because so often a joke isn't is what it really is, is somebody noticed something and we laugh. We laugh with the heart awareness of like, oh my God, that's totally true
John Muir Laws:recognition of a pattern that's been hiding in plain
Danny Gregory:sight. Yeah. And we say that that's that's I love that you notice that. Yeah. And that really makes me happy
John Muir Laws:so that you have collect, connect, share, and the
Danny Gregory:sharing part of it's super important. Right. Because when you share. You're allowing other people to find that same connection and then to maybe add to the connection and take it further. It's an essential part of what we do
John Muir Laws:the with the connecting part what you're describing as sort of the weaving together of these, these strands and finding those relationships in that's that's I've tried to build that into kind of the intentional process of my nature journaling. So I have these, my kind of nature journaling mantra is I notice, I wonder it reminds me of that. It reminds me of peace is. Is intentionally sort of thinking about what in your lived experience or things that you have read or seen before or saw in a gallery or you know, noticed on the, you know, from the cracks in the mud to the, the, the, the veins on the back of the hand. What if, what can you, that's, what is already kind of hooked into your gray matter, that one way or another relates to this new experience that you're having this new phenomenon that you're seeing? How can we tie that in and being deliberate about looking for that and putting that in your journal. So hunting for those pieces and intentionally putting those in. So it's really interesting to that this definition has that connecting as this critical part of this process.
Danny Gregory:Because isn't that, isn't that part. I mean, isn't that what the purpose of our lives is in a way is to. And understand what's going on. What were we experiencing to make connections between things to advance our own knowledge, maybe advance the knowledge of our children and the people around us to figure things out, to solve things to go, oh, this does this. So therefore it must be that that's how things move ahead. That's that's otherwise we're just passive. We're just here being fed, you know, whatever it is and we're not questioning, we're not exploring, we're not delighting, that's the delight of discovery. And, you know, if we, if we avoid that, then we're also taking away an important survival tool from ourselves, which is the ability to solve problems and you solve problems by noticing things and, and, and, and forming new connections. That's that, that could lead to a new situation. But if you can't solve problems, W, how are you going to survive? You know, that we are the, we are the descendants of people who solve problems. So therefore it's hardwired into us, those who, those of our forebears, who didn't solve problems, didn't survive. So it's a really important part of who we are. And I think that that's what we do as artists. Like, that's why this circumscribing, this class of artists is so meaningless because it's in all of us, it has to be, or else we wouldn't be here.
John Muir Laws:You're talking about deliberately seeking relationships in everything that you looking you're looking at. And so too with, with, with, with others, those, those relationships, the more, the older I get, the more I see that it's the relationships between us and among us that. Our, what brings so much richness into this world. And so when you're intentionally looking for those things you will encounter them more. So if you've got a search image and you're kind of going, like, what's the relationship I'm looking for, relationships, patterns, how are these things connected? Yeah, we may find some, you know, some false patterns that aren't there, but we're gonna, you know, hopefully we're going to, we'd start to weed some of those out, but if we're intentionally looking for those connections, we have a better chance of encountering them and, and seeing them than we otherwise would the that, and just sort of bouncing back to this collect, connect and share idea that T tell me the name of the book and the author. One more.
Danny Gregory:So the author's name is Amanda Palmer and she is the the book is called the art of asking. She has a Ted talk that is worth watching in his Ted talk. She talks about how she actually began as a street performer. She was, she was one of those living statues, you know, and then she, so she would basically get money from passers by for what she was doing. And you know, she then became part of this very successful band and she was tied into the whole thing we were talking about before this, this, these intermediaries, the, the music industry, the, you know, concert stadiums and all that stuff. And she decided that she wanted to break away from it. And so she started to say to her fans just give me. And I'll make this stuff. And a lot of people said, well, you're a wealthy, successful musician. Why should we give you money? The people who knew her and loved what she did said, we are going to support you in this and recognize that in that freedom that we're giving you. And in that support, we're giving you that validation becomes an ingredient in the art that you make, that we love. And but she talks about how difficult it was to ask and how suspicious people are of people who ask particularly in the creative world. Yeah. You know, like you would, you would never go to. A lawyer and be surprised when they said this is what it's going to cost you. Right. You know? And wouldn't go into a store and just say, you know, wonder what these numbers are that are written on the things that are for on display. You understand that Tran these transactions, but in the world of art, we screw that up.
John Muir Laws:Yeah. That's that's right. The, the, the idea is you're there here's, it's this, this false dichotomy. You should, you're either a starving artist or you're a sellout. Right. And so if you're financially successful then you're, you're, you're doing it wrong because you should be more hungry. But there's, there's, there's, there's another. I'm just, I'm bouncing back into Palmer's triad here for one more time. This, this collect connect share when you're reading that it reminded me of this very short poem by Mary Oliver. It's just three lines, interestingly, a triad, but, but look at th the, the connection between this, this is this little poem that she had has called instructions for living a life. Just three lines. It's pay attention. Be astonished. Tell about it.
Danny Gregory:So yeah, it's the same
John Muir Laws:thing. So pay attention is collecting. So you're collecting, you're paying attention to these things. You're, you're collecting these, these phenomenon by that act of deliberate attention. You're, you're collecting those. You are connecting the dots and that's what makes you, you, you, you realize that there's something wonderful happening in front of you. Be astonished. Tell about it, to share that with those, those, those, those connections, and that the, the wonder and the beauty of that with other people tell about it. That's the share. So pay attention, be astonished. Tell about it. That's the poem instructions for living alive by Mary Oliver.
Danny Gregory:And you think about how essential, how it makes sense that you know, that when we were living in more primitive forms of society, every single person in this society had. Had the responsibility to notice what was going on around them, right. To see what the animals are doing, what the weather was doing, to see, to pay attention, to be alert, and then to, to come to some conclusion about what they've seen and then to share it. Right. I mean, that's, without that we wouldn't exist. It's a really, really essential thing. And we do it all the time when we're talking, why we have conversations with people, we're always doing that. And art is just another form of that process, right? It's, it's a more pointed, it's often a more graceful and beautiful and nonverbal way of doing that. But it's, it's so essential and so similar that we need to, but we don't really, we're not explicit about it because we think it's the domain of a certain class.
John Muir Laws:And it's not some rarefied domain. It is, it is a tool for embracing the world. It's a tool for paying attention to the world. It's a tool for letting yourself be more permeable to the wonder, the beauty, sometimes the whore of what is real going on around us. And as you said you know, that, that, that just adds, it adds depth and beauty and joy to our lives. The creation of that, as well as the the creation of that as, as, as well as the. The, the product itself, but I would say most importantly, the creation,
Danny Gregory:so that process, so living in that process, being in a process of gathering, connecting, gathering, connecting, sharing, gathering, like that's, it's not about the final bit of information that you shared necessarily for us as artists, right? It's about this constant process of, of living and being and what a Mary Oliver call it
John Muir Laws:instructions for living a life,
Danny Gregory:a life, just living a life, not a good life, but just like, that's what it is. That's what you do. That's what you do. It's really that simple. Interesting. It's that? Well, I feel like we, do you have any final thoughts?
John Muir Laws:Well, no, just agreeing with you. It's just, it's like this, this, this poem that part of it is what's arresting about it is, is it's it's brevity. It's, it's so short as if she, you know, she's just sort of saying. You know, here is, I'm just going to boil it down here.
Danny Gregory:And I think that that is part of the art. What artists do also is we are interested in form, right? So we are we try to make things with Polish, right? We don't just dump everything we find out there, we pop, we connect, but then we Polish it, refine it and try to make it succinct to give it a hook, to make it have power, the power that comes from, you know, deliberating on it and honing it. That's, that's kind of what our job is in a way. And coming up with ways of, of sort of really making these observations feel essential and feel global, right? Making them feel bigger and more polished at the same time. Yeah, well, good. Well, I feel like we kind of failed at our mission. Totally, totally failed to ask you about your shoe size. You know, how often you go to the dentist. I was going to have, you know, those kinds of conversations with you, but we just didn't. We basically, what was this episode about what are we going to call
John Muir Laws:it?
Danny Gregory:Instructions for living a
John Muir Laws:life. Oh, so mad props to Mary Oliver. At the
Danny Gregory:we've got to call it something, can't put up a podcast episode of that title. That's a law of the universe.
John Muir Laws:Well, by the time this comes out, that problem will have been solved. You can see succinctly put that in. All right.
Danny Gregory:So let's, maybe we can have. Maybe we can come up and maybe have a competition who can come up with what this podcast is about. I don't think it's that confusing. I think in the end, it's about I don't know what it's about. Actually. I thought it was, I was going to say, I thought it was, I knew it was about, but I don't actually,
John Muir Laws:I wonder if it's about relationships.
Danny Gregory:It sounds like we're going to talk about like dating advice.
John Muir Laws:I know we can save that for another conversation. I don't
Danny Gregory:think, I don't know. I don't know that I'm qualified to give that. I don't know about you, but you have, you have daughters, so maybe, oh, I do. I do. I don't think they're dating yet though.
John Muir Laws:Oh, no, they are. They're nine and 10. Yeah, there has been, there's been a crash really interesting,
Danny Gregory:you know? All right. Well, that'll be our topic for our next thing. We're going to talk about how to meet boys. That'll be next. Week's next week's episode
John Muir Laws:tune in Jack and Danny pontificating out something where they have
Danny Gregory:very little dad's telling their daughters, dads, telling their kids had a date. That's right. Sounds repulsive. Oh dear. We probably won't talk about that. So anyway, tune in next week to find out what we do talk about. And in the meantime, if you have any questions, complaints, comments, if you'd
John Muir Laws:like to just be in relationship with us join the company.
Danny Gregory:Yeah. Start dating us. We're available to have more connections. Just write to us@podcastatsketchbookschool.com and we'll see what happens.