From Season 3 of "art for all," the Sketchbook Skool podcast. Join artists/authors, Danny Gregory and John Muir Laws in rich discussions about the creative process.
This week John and Danny talk about the discomfort that comes with growth and why it's so important to give yourself permission to risk and fail.
0h 4m 23s
covid
0h 5m 4s
married to an epidemiologist
0h 10m 22s
zombies
0h 10m 26s
earth abides
0h 23m 1s
No Text
0h 23m 1s
jack education
0h 33m 7s
betty edwards
0h 33m 14s
growth mindset
0h 40m 30s
discomfort
0h 40m 37s
200k hours
0h 40m 42s
10k hours
0h 44m 29s
permission to risk and fail
0h 51m 37s
how to critique to learn
1h 1m 19s
being your own coach
From Season 3 of "art for all," the Sketchbook Skool podcast. Join artists/authors, Danny Gregory and John Muir Laws in rich discussions about the creative process.
This week John and Danny talk about the discomfort that comes with growth and why it's so important to give yourself permission to risk and fail.
0h 4m 23s
covid
0h 5m 4s
married to an epidemiologist
0h 10m 22s
zombies
0h 10m 26s
earth abides
0h 23m 1s
No Text
0h 23m 1s
jack education
0h 33m 7s
betty edwards
0h 33m 14s
growth mindset
0h 40m 30s
discomfort
0h 40m 37s
200k hours
0h 40m 42s
10k hours
0h 44m 29s
permission to risk and fail
0h 51m 37s
how to critique to learn
1h 1m 19s
being your own coach
[00:00:00] Danny Gregory: Hi, welcome to the art for all podcast. This is the curious sketchbook and it is I'm Danny Gregory. I'm an artist and author and the founder of sketchbook school. I'm joined by my friend, John Muir laws. Hi, John
[00:00:19] John Muir Laws:
hey there, I'm John Muir laws. I am a biologist artist teacher, and I've kept sketchbooks of my own for years and years.
And they're sort of an adjunct to my brain and happy to be here discussing all sorts of ideas and concepts and related thoughts with you today, Danny.
[00:00:38] Danny Gregory: Great. Well, today we're going to talk about self-education what it means to teach yourself a subject or what it means to teach yourself, to make art, which is our focus here. And we're also going to talk about what are, what is the best approach to do. And our own personal experiences, we've been talk about growth mindset.
We're going to talk about good and bad teachers. And we're going to talk about just really how to make the best of the resources you have, how to use community, how to find a coach, a mentor, and a teacher. May be you, but how to do it the best possible way. And we'll talk about what we've learned and what we, how we teach people to help you to teach yourself.
So let's get into it.
[00:01:29] John Muir Laws: This will be fun.
[00:01:32] Danny Gregory: All right. We are just plunging in. We were just briefly discussing Jack you're a trans continental adventure.
[00:01:44] John Muir Laws: Well our, our, our Nana, my, my wife's mother is our last grandparent who is still with us. So we, the family went from California over to, to, to Maryland to spend some time with her. And when we got over there it was just this eruption of the Omicron variant of the, of the COVID virus. And so we have We just sort of huddled together and hoped for the best, kept our masks on and avoided crowds do the same on the flight back.
And we fortunately were nobody's caught the virus, so we're just doing everything we can for our own. You know, there's so much that you can do by being intentional about your distancing, your mask, wearing, washing your hands. Those are the things that we can control and we control those variables really well.
And we got through without. Without getting sick. So I'm happy to be here in healthy. How are you doing
[00:02:46] Danny Gregory: Danny? Yeah. And vaccinations, of course.
[00:02:50] John Muir Laws: Absolutely. So we my wife and I have had all three shots. So two Pfizers and a booster, and our two daughters have had their two shots under their skin and now have just become eligible for their booster.
So they will be doing that soon. You know, having, having something on board to help support our immune system like that, give us an edge. Should the virus show up in our body just makes it makes a huge, huge difference to people. Experience if they get it and recovery not having the long COVID and just keeping our bodies clean and, and and not have that virus run rampant in us that it I'm so grateful to science.
Thank you, science co vaccines work.
[00:03:40] Danny Gregory: Absolutely. Yes. We feel, I think when we first got our first vaccine, we kind of felt like, oh, it's over, we're done, we're free. We're safe. Right. We actually volunteered to work here at the stadium and Phoenix, and we stayed up overnight, helping people get their vaccines.
And so as, as compensation, we got our own slightly head of line and we were like, this is it. We're free. We can do whatever we want. And increasingly we've all been humbled and realized that, you know, the good news is. We're less likely to die, but we're certainly not immune. So
[00:04:18] John Muir Laws: I think that's a, that's a big misunderstanding that people will think that if I, if this, this vaccination is supposed to prevent me from getting COVID well, that that's not the way that our immune systems work.
If COVID comes into my body, my body already has, if, if my body's completely naive to an invading virus, then the virus can just have a party. While my immune system slowly goes like, wait, what's this? Wait, is this thing, oh, wait a minute. We'd better kind of marshal our forces against it. But because I've got that that vaccine in my body, all the markers of, of, Ooh, look, there's this virus in you are there ready to be detected.
So my body is already. Primed to get on top of the case, should any little virus particle make its way in? And then my immune system can marshals so that we avoid that big lag period where your body's going like, oh wait, what's this thing. Right. So it's yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't help me not get it, but should I get it?
There are two things going to happen. One is my, my symptoms are not going to be as severe. And number two I'm not going to have as heavy a viral load, so I'm must less likely to spread it around to all my friends, family, and anybody at the grocery store.
[00:05:41] Danny Gregory: You speak as if you were married to an epidemiologist.
[00:05:44] John Muir Laws: I am the amazing sabelle Reno. She's been, I'm proud of her. She's she's brave. She's been on the front lines of. Of dealing with this, this, this, this horrible virus. And you know, in just a few minutes, she's going to be heading out the door to head over to the hospital, to do patient care again today.
[00:06:13] Danny Gregory: That must be there must be really tough on you and on your whole family to know that she's she's on the front lines. Yeah. Well, yeah. I'm so glad that she is, but not for your sake. So yeah, it's, it's, it's great. I can understand that. Absolutely. So all right. Well, I, by the way, I just want to mention one thing quickly just while we're on this subject, which is not our normal subject for the curious sketchbook, but I dunno, this is another thing that we can be curious about.
I guess I'm reading this book called earth abides. If you've ever heard of a book like this, it's it is a book that was written in the early fifties. It's a science fiction. And I don't usually read a lot of science fiction novels, but I heard about this book and it sounded sort of interesting. And what it is is it's the first kind of, or one of the first books that's about basically an apocalyptic virus and this it's about a guy who is just sort of a curious guy.
Like I can imagine you having this, being this character in this book, he is very interested in nature and he does a lot of camping. And at the very beginning, at the very beginning of the book, he gets bitten by a rattlesnake. And just then there is an epidemic that suddenly happens really quickly.
And basically within two or three days, it wipes out the 99.9% of humans. Hmm. Everybody dies really, really quickly from this vaccine. And a lot of what the book is talking about from a vaccine
[00:07:47] John Muir Laws: or the
[00:07:47] Danny Gregory: virus, right? I'm sorry, from the virus. Yes, there isn't a vaccine and everybody dies very quickly. And so he is bitten by this rattlesnake and he doesn't know about the, about what's happened.
And he is in a tent, you know, recovering or cabin, I think recovering from this rattlesnake bite knee. And he has a fever and he has various other symptoms. And then when he recovers he learns the news about what's happened. And it seems that getting bitten by the rattlesnakes somehow supercharge his immune system right at the right moment, kind of like a Spiderman sort of situation.
And so therefore he managed to develop an immunity and he it's really about what happens to the earth when all people are gone. And I've read another book about this idea, which is called the world without us. You've heard about the book. Yeah. There was a national geographic special about it too.
And this book, again, this is from the early fifties and it's really, it's really fascinating about what happens to animals. You know, and how domestic animals you know, react to suddenly there not being any humans around what happens to wild animals and how they sort of change their behavior and start to come into the places where people were and change their behavior as well.
It's also about what happens to cities, what happens to electricity? What happens to water, all these different systems and it's also about building. Society from the ground up we've we see a lot of these post-apocalyptic things and there are about the zombies or this constant threat. And this book isn't about that threat at all.
It's like this has happened and he slowly managed it. He's, he's a person who doesn't particularly interact with other people, but very much he's kind of a loner, but he slowly starts to realize like he needs to needs other people. And he starts to form a little tribe. And then the book kind of goes over the next 20 years as they start to develop a little community and they start to have children.
And then they start to realize like, okay, we have to, we were basically living off canned goods and living off whatever's leftover from the civilization. And then they start to realize like, okay, we've got to start preparing for whatever's going to happen next, but it's also about the human impulse to not prepare.
And if you're fine now, then just keep doing what you're doing. But also, you know, how much should you prepare for, for the eventualities? I don't know. It's just a fascinating book. I just stumbled across it and I just spent the weekend like completely immersed in it and it's been really cool. So
[00:10:22] John Muir Laws: I think those, those are, you know, those are really interesting themes to explore in our own thinking.
I The everybody thinks of me as somebody who you know, must be spending his time reading thorough. But I also have somebody who loves actually a good zombie movie. The that's that's an interesting theme in some of the best of them are this idea that there's something going on, that's this problem, you know, an external problem.
And the people think about that. Okay. So that the, the zombies are your problem, but inevitably in, in these movies, it's human interactions how we treat each other and our own greed or selfishness that. Is the downfall of whatever little community is trying to, to, to get going. So ultimately in these movies, there's this kind of an interesting, moral about, you know, it's not the enemy without it's the enemy within it's ourselves that we have to confront and the problems, whatever we're encountering, the problems are going to be the problems that we have.
But, and we don't have any real control over that. You're in, there's a virus that's rampaging across the globe. And it's going to be evolving and doing its things on its own terms. But what we do have control is over is how we respond and the decisions that we make, how do we treat each other is our first impulse to get out there and hold court as much toilet paper as we can, as we barricade our bunker.
Are we helping other people. Get along. This, this morning I was in line. Me, let me have a really good day at work. Proud of you.
That's about
[00:12:16] Danny Gregory: we just saw her zombies. Yes. Yeah.
[00:12:19] John Muir Laws: So what we do have control over the decisions that we make and the degree to which we, we take care of each other this morning. My daughters and I got up at six to go get in line, to get tested before they get back to school. They they're going to get tested to see if they have an active case of COVID and the lines were long and There was a woman who was in her car, you know, everybody's in cars sort of in line to get their, their, their, their tests.
There's a woman who had car trouble. And this collection of people got out of their vehicles and helped her manage and deal with her situation. Instead of leaving her alone, she wasn't just somebody who was alone in their car while everybody else was buckled up in their cars. People got out and took care of her.
And that is what we need. That's the part of the package that we need. We need of course, science, the vaccinations, and are sort of the best current information on how to respond to something like the virus, or of course the zombies. We also need to keep taking care of each other and draw that boundary of care, not just around ourselves or our immediate family, but how can we still function as a community?
[00:13:51] Danny Gregory: Yeah, I mean, I S I saw joined nine 11 living in New York. People was behaving that way. I saw it. When hurricane Sandy kind of devastated a lot of the area that I lived in, people joined together. This hasn't brought out necessarily the best in people it did at the beginning, but there seems to have been certain amount of everybody for themselves that's gone on, but anyway, we're not going to editorialize or politicize this discussion.
That's not in our purview, but I think we can all be, we can all agree that that when possible let's help each other. So
[00:14:24] John Muir Laws: that's nuts, that's help each other. And also just want to send a shout out to the, the person at the. Testing center she told me that she said, I'm so sorry. You've had to wait so long.
We're short-staffed because many of us have been getting sick. So deep respect to those people who are out managing the testing stations and putting themselves at risk so that our larger community can be safe. Thank you. Right?
[00:14:49] Danny Gregory: Absolutely. All right. So today's topic is not COVID despite talking about the last 15 minutes our topic is going to be self-education.
And I think in, in a lot of ways, we're both, self-educated when it comes to certain parts of our, of what we do. You know, I, I went to. Good high school. I went to a good college. But ultimately the thing that I'm passionate about is something that I'm self-educated in, or the two things really.
I mean writing is something that I certainly studied in high school a bit. And when I went to college, ironically, when it went to college, there was a creative writing program that you had to apply to. So every other, every other class you wanted to take in college, you just signed up for, and if there was room you got into, but creative writing and my creative writing class was taught by an author named Joyce, Carol Oates.
And, you know, she's famous author, but she rejected me. I didn't get in. So I never got to take creative writing in college. And I've never read a Joyce Collins book since just my pay review that showed her right. Yeah. If you were listening to this, please never did support me. But ultimately when it came to writing, you know, I learned by doing, and then when I was in my forties or late thirties, when I started to draw similarly, it was, you know, I didn't go to art school.
I didn't really take many art classes, maybe a couple of high school, but ultimately I taught myself how to draw and how to paint. And that's basically what I've done ever since. And, and what is your story as far as that goes and, and not just in terms of art, but also in terms of other things that you are now, you know, focused on.
[00:16:51] John Muir Laws: I, most of my early life I've been, I've been a kid with a pencil in my hand in. 2001, I left the jobs that I was doing, and I decided I wanted to do to create this, this, this field guide about this year in Nevada mountains. And in order to do that, I thought I needed to kind of up my game. There was a scientific illustration program at UC Santa Cruz and I applied for that and I was accepted to it and spent nine months there studying scientific illustration.
Before that I had in high school, there had been art classes. I took some art classes in, in college, but at the time that I was doing that, sort of the, the state of the art of of teaching people. Art was this idea that everybody has an inner artist in them and you just don't want to get in the way of that.
And so put materials in their hands and just kind of let them go. So essentially there was no technique taught but there were opportunities to to draw and to paint. So they would you take a figure drawing class and a person would walk into the little room and take their clothes off and you'd be there with your charcoal and go.
And every once in a while that, you know, the teacher would kind of make arounds and say, make your lines more expressive and you kind of go ahead cause they don't know what you're talking about. But there's, there's, there's a real minimum of, of, of instruction. I always kind of wanted like, you know, how do I do this?
And. But this class in Santa Cruz, it was a different story. It was very focused. You know, it's like, all right, we're going to be drawing insects today. And we're going to be doing that in black and white and are gonna be using stipple. And we're going to be trying to render sort of textured surfaces with little lines and grooves and dots in the back end.
Here's how you use the telescope, the microscope. And no, don't, don't look through it that way. Look through it this way, because then, you know, the light is going to be at a better angle and you'll see, you know, so it was very, very, very specific.
[00:19:02] Danny Gregory: And is that because it was scientific illustration?
It wasn't self-expression, it was designed. We
[00:19:10] John Muir Laws: want, we want you to be able to render this beetle in a way that people looking at it will recognize the texture on the surface of its characters. Right. And. I it was intense. So every day, you know, you wake up early and you drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive to a draw.
There would be these critiques that would be the most detailed specific like, like this part of this Beatles Tarsus, it doesn't really have a sense of volume to it. It just feels flat to me like, yeah, that section of that Tarsus. Oh, I see what it was because it was so specific. Everybody in that cohort, we got so much more sort of technically precise in what we were doing.
And because we're drawing so much, we all got a lot better. And it ended up being an incredibly supportive environment that encouraged us just to kind of work together and do more. And so it was a really positive experience for me in taking art lessons. Before that I'd been kind of like men on these art lessons that I've done everything kind of on my own and looking at a few books.
Since then I have continued to draw and draw and draw and also have devoured books by other people. And I think I'm now kind of better able to kind of sort through them and kind of like, ah, this is an idea that I need, this is an idea that I need. I've got kind of a bigger picture of kind of this drawing process.
So when I'm looking through one of these kind of, you know art self-help books I can spot parts in it that like, oh, this, this is going to help my game a little bit more easily. So I have a combination, it started off self-taught. Then I took this really intensive, very specific course and loved it.
And since then I've continued to do myself education.
[00:21:20] Danny Gregory: So that's that is interesting. That is, I mean, that's very different from my experience. And I was just thinking, as you were talking about it, I was thinking, I seem to remember that when I was younger, You know, going back to when I was a kid that I bristled when people would tell me specifically how to do stuff that was creative, you know, like, and I think that was true of writing as well.
I mean, writing, I remember, you know, in high school my teacher would, would critique what I'd written and, you know, red pencil stuff and all that kind of thing. I was just like, oh, I really, really resented it and hated it. And I would come up with all kinds of theories about like, why this stuff couldn't be taught.
And, you know, whenever I would take a class that had anything to do with art history and they would like break down paintings and they would say like, you know, there's a triangular shape that connects the drapery here with the, with you know, the saints head over there, all that kind of stuff. And I would just, I would just, I hated it.
And I would say. To myself, you know, I just don't believe that that's really the way artists work. And I don't think that they have all this kind of subtext in there and in an English class, you know, in high school when they would take apart, you know, a novel and they would talk about the themes and the symbolism.
And I would always think again, like, is any of that really real? Is that really the way artists work? Is that just like nonsense that English teachers have come up with? I was just always rebelling in my mind, at least. I mean, I, I, I occasionally would say it out loud, but I think, and when it came to art making, I just think I would, I would not have been, I mean, you were, you know, older, obviously, you know, and you were very focused
[00:23:07] John Muir Laws: going there specifically
[00:23:09] Danny Gregory: to get that, to learn that particular thing.
Right. So of my, my son went to art school, he went to Rhode Island. School of design is a really good school. And I think a lot, I mean, the. Yeah, they did, they did do drawing and they did, you know, and he, it was, he was kind of amazed at how many kids who were students there had, had never drawn it, never learned to draw didn't draw, you know?
And I thought like, really, like you're going to art school and you never really know you had a draw. I mean, Jack knew how to draw. That's my son, Jack. He knew how to draw because we always would draw together. But, but you know, it just felt like similar to what you're seeing that learning that art was, you know, and I think this is something that kind of developed, you know, 50 years ago.
Our education is supposed to be conceptual, you know, teaching people how to think like artists, you know basically since most art, you know, the focus on representational art, you know, it's diminished so much of the last century. So I think that people didn't think that you go to art school to learn.
How to draw and paint technically. And, and I agree with that. I mean, I think, I think that, that, that is what an artist should, should focus on. To some extent that, you know, you need to focus on how to see and think like an artist, not just how to render and how to use certain materials. But that is also, but that is something you want to learn too.
So it's conflict, right? So like, why are you going to school? Exactly. And, you know, I think I certainly bought thousands of art instruction books over the years, you know, and you buy it, you go to the bookstore and you see like, oh, a book on watercolors and you buy it. And you, you know, you're looking at the pictures and you kind of ignore most of the texts because a lot of times they're not really that well-written, or they're using the kind of language you described before.
We sort of say, I don't really understand really what they're talking about. Dry expressively, you know, this, or they're talking very technically about. About the materials. So I just found, like, I would look at the pictures for inspiration. But I think I bought a lot of books that I never really used to learn from.
Like I didn't, you know, to some extent when you have this desire to learn, to draw. It's mitigated a little bit by buying a book on how to draw. So you go, I really want to learn how to draw going by a book before and then like that itch is scratched. And
[00:25:33] John Muir Laws: right, right. Because that's on my shelf, it's now kind of done,
[00:25:37] Danny Gregory: kind of know it now.
Right. And it's kind of like, I feel like, let me go and buy some art supplies. Okay. Now I don't need to make art anymore. I spent, I can put them in
[00:25:47] John Muir Laws: that box. That's on the shelf, in the closet with all that. I got that much closer to doing art
[00:25:54] Danny Gregory: and one day I'll. Yeah. So, but I think, I think when it comes to art instruction books, and I've written as, have you, we've both written books on how to teach people to draw.
You know, and it's, in some extent it's difficult to write a book on how to teach people to draw, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's difficult to say, okay, here it's like writing a book on how to drive. I always bring up driving as an analogy, but yeah. You gotta do it. You got to do it. So how can I write a book that actually, rather than instructs you kind of more inspires you?
So the actually do it because again, buying books on our instruction and buying art supplies is only, only useful if you actually get them out and start working with them. Well,
[00:26:37] John Muir Laws: that's what you're talking about there with the driving school. The learning how to drive is a great analogy because there's, you can, you can see the movies, you can study the manual, but you also have to get behind the wheel.
But if you get behind the wheel without any of that, of seeing the movies or. Getting some of the theory, you're going to be a real hazard to yourself and others, you might die before you learn to drive. Yeah. And, and you, you can, and if you survive those that first month or two, right then you'll probably emerge again, driver.
But there's, there's some stuff that we've figured out about operating a motor vehicle that works really, really well. And not just sort of rules, but you know, the idea that you come up to the street, you're going to cross and you turn your head to the left and then to the right. And then to the left.
So you go left right left. And that wouldn't have occurred to me, but somebody taught me left right left. And so what I'm doing is I'm first looking where the place, where the first car that I'm going to be getting hit by will be. And then I look back in the end when it's clear there, I look back the other direction to see if the far lane is clear.
But before I pull out into traffic, I'm going to look back to where the car is going to be coming again. So back to the left and that little left right left habit, it works really well. I might not have come up with, Hey, let's look at negative shapes, but looking at the negative shapes, somebody points this out to me like, oh, oh yes, that works really well.
That's a left right left. It's this sort of weird little thing we can do. And it makes the mechanics of this work so much better. I don't know if I would've come up with left right left or if I would've come up with looking at negative shapes, if I were just. If I just got behind a wheel, that's
[00:28:34] Danny Gregory: why I think one of the best art instruction books is Betty Edwards drawing on the right side of the brain because it teaches you.
Yeah. There's like three or four things that you've learned from that book that are the things that you need to know, you know, and drawing negative sheets. One of them draw, I mean, her exercise where you draw upside down is so transformative. I mean, I've done that exercise with so many people and they cannot believe that they were able to draw this thing, that they were able to copy a drawing by, I forget who inspired Picasso or something.
And you say, and then you turn it around and it's like a magic trick that you did to yourself and understanding the whole, the, the theory behind this sort of split brain notion that, that you have to not think symbolically. It's it's totally one of those like light bulb moments. And so yes, there are things that, again, nobody really in the history of art instruction ever kind of knew that stuff.
Like she, I mean, they, they probably knew it, but she articulates it's in such a great way by tying it to brain science and to developments in how the brain functions that, that just resonates so much with, particularly with people who are new to drawing, because it sort of says to you, yeah, there's like there are there actual sort of objective aspects to this process that you can learn and understand.
And if you do your make quantitative, I mean, quality of leaps immediately and you do. Yeah. And I think another thing that's cool about that book is she has these kind of before and after examples of people and in a lot of ways you could say, well, any art instruction book could probably have those, but most don't and.
In some ways they're they're like testimonials, like this really works. Look, it really worked with me, but on another level it also makes it accessible and you say, oh, my drawings are lousy. Like that first drawing is, could I really get to this other place? And there's sort of a guarantee that like you will get there and that gives you confidence.
And so confidence is another one of those sort of primal learning experiences you have to have when it comes to drawing that says, you know what, it's not really about talent. It's not really even about any kind of tricks or technical things. It's just believing that you can do it. That will make a huge, huge difference in what you're doing.
So again, those are the things that you might figure out by yourself, but you know, a great instruction book can, can help you to kind of catapult forward in a way that's really.
[00:31:14] John Muir Laws: Yeah. So what are the, the things that I, I found myself talking a lot about in my workshops is this idea of the growth mindset.
And this is fascinating. So the idea behind growth mindset comes from our re. Or sort of better understanding through neuroscience of the way that we learn. And it used to, we used to believe that people's brains developed throughout their, throughout their adolescents. And then somewhere in there they stopped growing.
And then that was the brain you had and the brain cells that you have to play with. And after that was just kind of a slow decline. So depending on how much partying you were doing but you're basically, here's, here's the brain you get and that's, that's the brain you have. And so in that context, it's sort of make, would make sense for people that like, well, I'm going to, let's find out if I have a good brain or a bad brain, so I'm going to take an IQ test.
But what we found as people have gone in and continued to study brains is that that idea was an interesting hypothesis, but it's totally. And human brains develop throughout our entire life. And the signal that we need to kind of get your brain to grow is repetition with effort and by kind of showing up for that showing up again and again and again, you are making your brain physically change its shape and structure.
So all learning is actually physically rewiring neurons in your brain and building new neural connections. So you are, you're actually changing the structure of your brain and you do that at all ages. And if you stop doing that, Stop challenging your brain and your brain doesn't have to work. Your brain will also start to prune away branches that it doesn't need anymore.
But the minute you start pushing yourself again and kind of challenging your brain, then it starts rewiring and building new structures in your brain. So it's not the brain that you're born with. It's the brain that you make through the work and the decisions throughout your entire life. And what they found is that if you teach this fundamental idea to people, it changes the way that they face challenges and practice.
Because if you believe that the brain that you've got is the brain that you've got and something is hard. Well then obviously this is just beyond your pay grade. And so you'd better do something else, but if something is hard and you've got, instead of that fixed mindset, a growth mindset, you'd be like, oh, this is challenging.
Huh? That's interesting. And then you, what you do is you reframe that. Feeling of, oh, this is hard to have when you are experiencing that. You're saying to yourself like, oh cool. This is the feeling of my brain growing. And so criticism, instead of something that brings you down, if you've got a fixed mindset and somebody says, you didn't do that, well, you missed this and this and this, you feel really bad and you don't like them, but if you've got a growth mindset and somebody says, you know, this part didn't work and this part or this part and this part, and you look at that and you're like, oh, that's right.
I'm gonna try to do that differently this time. How could I do that differently?
[00:34:49] Danny Gregory: What was going on? All right.
[00:34:51] John Muir Laws: Yes. Thank you. So, yeah, but you really mean it. You're not just your, your, your, your brain is going okay. Good. So coaching helps instead of coaching, you feel irritated at the coach. If you've got a fixed mindset and somebody saying like, oh, do this differently.
Like no other brain of God is the brain of God. Now, why are you getting on my case instead of, oh, this is great. Yes. Okay. Now what else am I going to do? So it totally changes the way that you feel. You face a mistake. So if you make a mistake and you've got a fixed mindset, oh, you did something bad. If you make a mistake and you've got a growth mindset, you're like, oh, each of those mistakes is your opportunity to learn to do something differently.
So there's a wonderful there's a a quote from one of my favorite growth mindset researchers. Is that well, not just this idea that, that, that challenge is the feeling of your brain growing. But. I have completely lost my train of thought. There was another idea in there. And what is it?
What is it? What is it? It'll come to me in a moment. Okay.
[00:35:54] Danny Gregory: But so let me take over for a second to say that. I mean, I think obviously it's empowering, you know, if you grow up in a, if you feel like you've grown up, for instance into society where you are in a cast or you are, you know, you're going to be a surf because your father was a surf it takes away your, your impulse to try, you know, you're sort of locked in, you're locked into this because it's the situation
[00:36:20] John Muir Laws: system can also be built around the myth of.
[00:36:25] Danny Gregory: Exactly. So, so I, I was born in capable of doing, of drawing. I'm not an artist I, this and that. I think it's also interesting this Malcolm Gladwell wrote that whole thing about the notion of the 10,000 hours to master a given skill. You know, he talked about, about that's what it takes, but it's, and that's actually inaccurate because it's what it's not just showing up.
It's not showing up. It is challenging yourself is forcing yourself to try to, to be active and to always be pushing yourself into discomfort. Discomfort is a really important aspect of the growth mindset, right? Because you don't want to just say. Well, you know, I played the scales and the piano every day for 10,000 hours, I should be able to, you know,
[00:37:13] John Muir Laws: now bring on the rock mountain and off, why is it working?
I'm just really good at scales now.
[00:37:17] Danny Gregory: Right. And I think certainly when, when I, when I talked to people who say, I just can't draw noses, I just can't draw horses. I just can't draw buildings. I just can't do this. And so then you don't and then you never will. Right. But if you say to yourself, you know what, I can't draw this, but let me try it.
Or, oh, that was
[00:37:33] John Muir Laws: really terrible. And yet after that, I can't draw it yet. Exactly. That yet mindset is really, really powerful. And so just to, to.
[00:37:47] Danny Gregory: Did you pick up your, your thought
[00:37:48] John Muir Laws: again, know that there were, there were two, actually two other thoughts that rift off what you were just saying a moment ago. And now they're gone, but you keep going NFS.
I'm going to make little kind of some, some doodles as, as these, this, these ideas come to me. So that the next idea I'm going to actually going to, I'm going to have, oh yeah. I remember sort of one of these thoughts. So if you just are th that you're talking about discomfort and they've actually looked into this and sort of, what is the optimal place.
In terms of your discomfort in any challenge and, and what it is is you want to get yourself, your brain to enjoy being just outside of your comfort zone. So the sweet spot for neural development is not when you're totally overwhelmed, because then you're going to get panicked. They're like, I can't do this, right.
It's not where you're comfy because now you're, then you're not having to learn anything new. But if you just kind of get used to the idea of I'm going to push myself just a little bit outside of my comfort zone, that is the place where, where you can surf, you want to surf the wave that is just slightly larger than the one that you know, you can do.
[00:39:07] Danny Gregory: Yeah. I mean, my yoga instructor always says you should feel uncomfortable, but not in pain, you know? So, so if you're in a place of discomfort, then that's, that's what growth feels. Yes, but paying means it's an alarm, you're doing something wrong. So, so I think a lot of times we're afraid to take risks because we're afraid of, of calamity.
You know, we're afraid of trying to go into someone new, you know, I mean, I've talked before about when I went to clown school, speaking of self-education. Oh yeah. I went to clown school, which was a shock. I mean the most extreme discomfort. How can you do things that are based in, you know, public humiliation and and you know, cause clowns, ultimately, we, we enjoy clowns because we sort of see ourselves in them.
Right. You look at Charlie Chaplin and he. Yeah. Yeah. I, I like it's externalizing this thing that we're always afraid of doing, and here's a person who does it and survives survives, you know, pratfalls and all kinds of disasters. And that's like, that's the role that clowns have in our society. And in our own psychology is just, we can go vicariously with them to a place that we would ourselves be embarrassed or ashamed to go there.
But, but taking that on and saying to yourself, okay, I'm going to try and experience this in order to feel okay with a bad thing happening to me. Like, you know, if I know if I'm always terrified that something disastrous will happen, if, if I'm afraid of doing a bad drawing and then I forced myself, you know, to do a bad wrong, I've done this exercise with people where I've said, let's try and do a bad.
You will fail if you do a good one. So let's try, like, what would it mean to do a bad drawing? What does that actually mean? Can you force yourself to do it? And unfortunately, most people come back and they say, you know what? I ended up really loving the drawing that I did. And I say, well, you failed, you failed, failed.
That's a terrible, good, Harold's a good D minus. Exactly my red pen. Exactly. So, so I think, you know, finding situations for ourselves where we say, how can I be okay with falling on my face? And you know, by doing that, I know again, it's like lifting weights at the gym. You want to get to the point of failure, right?
If you lift weights and you, you know, you can do the whole set, then there's no point in doing it. It's only, it's only when you get to the point where you cannot do one more, that you know, that you had a good workout. And so simply withdrawing it's like we too often think that, that we have. Have not grown because he didn't do well.
And in fact that the opposite should be the case. Have you tried to find the thread again? Oh
[00:41:59] John Muir Laws: yeah. So, and, but just wanted to reinforce what you're saying about giving yourself permission to take those risks and give yourself permission to make those mistakes. You have to sort of reframe what those mistakes are because in those, that is where you're learning.
Oh, I remember the the thing that I was the, the, the, the, the cool idea about growth mindset. And no, it just left. It's strange. My brain is not holding onto ideas very long today, but it's a good one when it comes back the third time we'll catch it. And then this is just building up, building up for that.
But but sort of a, another kind of related kind of interesting idea is when you're talking about, it's not just sort of sitting down at the piano and going dumped them. Sometimes, sometimes I'm dumped on time and doing chopsticks kazillion times for your 10,000 hours. And also, so first of all, you're right, that, that, there's, there's a lot of confusion about that 10,000 hours thing that makes people think that if I want to get a, develop a skill, I need to devote 10,000 hours to it.
But that's not what that research is saying. That was to get to be the first violin in the Vienna Philharmonic. What we're talking about here is how much time and effort do you need to put in to the point where you're getting positive reinforcement from what you're doing, that gets you to want to do it again and again, and again, and again, or to the point where you see your skill is developing and growing.
And that happens really fast. You don't need your then on the path to getting that 10,000 hours in. So it's not like you wait for 10,000 hours and then you're going to see results in this. You start doing this, you push your brain outside of that little comfort zone and you will start to develop these skills.
And there's a real pleasure that comes from, you know, you mentioned the before and after drawings, you know, you open up the front of your, your sketchbook and you kind of like, this is what I was doing three months ago, and this is what I'm doing now. And that's, this is, I can see that it is different. And that, so you don't need that to put in that 10,000 hours in order to get really significant results.
The 10,000 hours thing is about being first violin in the world's most prestigious orchestra or to being the world's champion chest master. Right, right. To be that person. Which for me is not my goal,
[00:44:35] Danny Gregory: but also putting in 10,000 hours might not get you that goal either. So you could put in 10,000 hours and not be the world's chess champion that's right.
But if you want to be the chess, chess champion, you're going to have to put in that time. So you're gonna
[00:44:46] John Muir Laws: have to put in that time. But if you start putting the time in on whatever it is now, and you're going to start to see results from that work that you put in, and it's not, again, just repeating things, but in what they're talking about is the idea of deliberate practice.
So not just practice. But deliberate practice. And the thing that makes deliberate practice different than practice practice is that when people are doing deliberate practice, there is a clear feedback mechanism that, that, that you're using. So if you're doing the same thing, let's say, I've got to learn how to play golf and you get the stick and you kind of whack around, you know, you'd get like, you get really good at being a weed whacker, but you wouldn't get good at you hitting that ball where you want it to go.
Right. So with, with, with feedback, like I did this this time and this happened, so now I'm going to do it differently this time. Oh, that worked. I'm going to do that again. So you're actually looking at what you have done and then looking for how you're going to intentionally change that to the next stage.
In doing that. If there is a clear way of getting feedback on your own, you can do that on your own. It also, what people have found is with the process of deliberate practice, having a coach, or even a person who you are doing this with a partner makes a huge difference. So if you and your best friend or something like we're going to decide, let's, let's, let's take up urban sketching together, right?
And then you you go out and you do some, some sketching together. So first of all, you're socially distance. You're wearing your mask. You're having a great time and you have snacks together. It's enjoyable. You're going to do it again. And then you do it again. So that's going to let you get better, but if you also.
Then everyone's smiling to say, like, let's take a look at the sketches we did last week. We don't have to look at the ones we just did right now, because then we might have a little bit too much ego wrapped up in those, but let's take a look at the ones from last week and you helped me see what I can change in those to make it better.
And I'll look at yours and give you the same kind of feedback. So you're looking at it through a different person's eyes. You can also hold your own artwork up to a mirror. And sometimes that gets you to think about it in a different way.
[00:47:12] Danny Gregory: But Betty Edwards.
[00:47:14] John Muir Laws: Yes, that's right. So, so those approaches Intentionally looking for, I'm not just going to do the same thing a lot, but I'm going to look for what is working that I want to continue doing.
What's not working that I might want to change.
[00:47:30] Danny Gregory: It's not critique, that's not like a crit that people kind of, you know, are terrified of. Like, somebody's going to say I'm bad or something's going to give me a grade. It's not that it's, as you said, it's, it's it's advice it's Hey, why don't we try this?
Yeah. And it only works
[00:47:47] John Muir Laws: and it only works in the context of having a growth mindset. Right. Because if you do that with your friend and your friend has got a fixed mindset, they're not going to want to talk to you anymore,
[00:47:57] Danny Gregory: right? Yeah. You have to have rules of engagement that, that kind of determine what it is that you're trying to get out of doing the drawing.
If you say, okay, this is what I want to do. Can we now analyze this drawing in terms of what my goals are not, is this any good, but you know, if you say I've been struggling with this kind of drawing, can we look at this drawing and talk about like, why that is? So it's focused and it's it's diagnostic as opposed to, you know, some criticism that you could take personally, you want to, you want to have some objectivity about it too.
Yeah.
[00:48:30] John Muir Laws: Th the other danger is if our identity gets wrapped up in that drawing right then, and somebody criticizes it, they are criticizing, then I'm no good. So that's why having some emotional space or distance from that is, is important. And I am not that drawing. And so a critique of that drawing is not a critique of me.
That's one reason why it's good to critique the one you did last time. Instead of the one you just finished because you're the one you've yeah, you you're, you're the one you've just finished like that, that can be me, but that's the old me over there. We can talk about that. But you know, this kind of, it reminds me of the, the, when I was in the scientific illustration program, we did these critiques and the way that they started is everybody was being just sort of very, very delicate with each other.
Nobody wanted to step on anybody's toes and, you know, we'd hold, put all our drawings up and say like, you know, so let's get some feedback and everybody would say like, oh, that's just so nice. Oh, what about this one? That one's just so nice. Oh, I love that. Oh, that's really pretty. That's so nice. And it was positive reinforcement and that was nice.
And so you got at the end of it, you'd spend all this time with it and people say, well, that was nice. And so we did this for a few weeks. And then we sat down as a group and we said like, you know what? Our goal here is to get better. And I forget who it was. It started off with one person. And you said like, you know, for the last several weeks, you folks have told me that the stuff that I do is nice and it's pretty like, what should I do next with it?
And, and the best advice was like, oh, frame it. Right. And the person said like, I don't want to hear that anymore because what I really want to do is this person came at us with this really growth mindset and said, what I really want to do is I want to get better. So if there's some part of it right, that I can improve, please, I really need you to point that out to me.
And. Then once that person said that the next person said like, yeah, me too. Me too, me too. And so as a group, we decided let's all do this for each other. And we were still respectful to each other. We were still kind to each other. It was a supportive, loving environment in that class, but we could kind of get in there and help each other.
Find those find like this is the two ideas that I found were really helpful. One is to, to, to find the parts that are the strongest and be able to articulate, not just, this is nice, but this is nice because this right. There's a specific thing that I recommend that you do again. Right. And this part over here.
I'm challenged with this. I'm having trouble with kind of reading this part. This part is sort of feeding into this. Like that contrast is really here at strong. It's really work for me here, you know, where it's not working, but specifically not to saying I don't like that, but saying this little aspect of this thing, and again, being specific then would allow that person to either correct that or on their next drawing, put that correction into play and that kind of a discussion.
We didn't have the vocabulary of growth mindset at that time, but looking back on it that's exactly what we were doing. We were reinforcing the things which we wanted to keep. We were identifying the things which we would want to change and without, without ego, without a threat We were moving our ball down
[00:52:16] Danny Gregory: the field.
It makes sense. I mean, I'm paying tuition to go to this school. I want to get something out of it. I'm not just here to feel nice, but also I think you can, as you said, I think you can learn to do that to yourself too. You have to have some distance, you know, and you have to not allow your inner critic to turn this into a complete sort of a diatribe aborad condemnation of everything you are as a human being, you know, just because you didn't like get the eye.
Right. But you know, there's definitely an opportunity for having a system. I think a lot of what we're talking about here is being systematic. I think what happens a lot. And I mean, I think about like last week we talked about passion and the week before we talked about beginning, I feel like this is kind of tying some of these threads together, which is a lot of times when you begin and use our self-talk, you're teaching yourself to do this.
You're going to fairly quickly not have good results. You're going to do your first drawings and you're going to say, yup, there you go. I knew it. I suck. I'm no good at this. I'm not going to get anywhere. And of course that isn't true. But if you had somebody else there with you, if you have a teacher who says, you know, you have to do X number of drawings every day in order to get a grade at the end of the semester, that's going to motivate you to keep going and to push through this nonsense.
Or if you have a friend or if you have just a, you know, a group of people who you're working with. But you're still going to have resistance. You still going to have a voice inside of you that says, oh, it's embarrassing to show up to that group because everybody else is so good. And I'm so terrible, you know?
Or, oh, I don't want to bother my friend because you know, there is so much better at it and I'm just, all those kinds of things are all just stuff you have to suppress because they're going to get in your way. But you're going to have to persevere. And if you're just learning from books or from YouTube videos there's going to be a lot of reason to give up and, you know, you ha you have to sustain that.
And you ha you have to say to yourself, I'm going to have a system where I say, you know what, I'm going to draw steadily for a month. I'm going to take, I'm going to find one or two books. I think Betty Edwards is a great book. But if you don't want to use that earn, you could use my book, how to draw without talent.
You know, you can just find a book that, that you stick to. And you say to yourself, I'm not going to evaluate this for X amount of time. And when that time arrives, I'm going to evaluate myself with this growth mindset. What can I teach myself that will help to advance me? Where are the areas that I need to improve?
Nothing has to do with questioning the basic premise of this whole enterprise. I am not discussing whether or not I should learn to draw. That's not under discussion. I'm going to learn. I'm going to discuss, how can I get to this goal that I have to feel comfortable doing it, and also recognize that you will never stop learning.
I mean, both of us constantly are learning. We're still reading art instruction books. We're still practicing. We're still trying to push ourselves into new areas because that push. Readthrough wards trying to do new things, trying to use new media, trying. I mean, Jack, you've completely rethought how you draw birds, but kind of a foundational thing for you.
And you've come up through the hole. You know, you've basically admitted to yourself this way that I've been doing for all this time. I wrote books about it. You said, and now I've changed.
[00:55:46] John Muir Laws: We've got how to draw birds. And now I think I've got a better system for drawing birds and as shown in how to draw birds.
Right? So that must have a lot of stuff in there on like, you know, details of wings and things, but like the 1, 2, 3 of how you build your basic bird, I would now totally do that in
[00:55:58] Danny Gregory: a different way. Right. So that must have been, but that must, that's a, that's a risky proposition. You're kind of saying, you know what, hi, I'm McDonald's guess what?
We don't make big Macs that way anymore. It's, it's a challenge, you know, to, to go and to say I'm rethinking it, but it's not only is it a sign of integrity, but it's also, it keeps it interesting. You want to, and I can think of, I know a lot of professional illustrator. Who developed a style of drawing, developed a topic of things that they draw became well-known for it developed a business around it.
They were the go-to guys. If you wanted to have a drawing of. And then became really unhappy because of it. So even though they were getting paid every day to draw, they weren't growing the, and drawing had just become this rote thing. So even though they're really good, even though we would all love to be able to do draw cars like they do or draw landscapes like they do, they were unhappy because they weren't growing anymore.
And a lot of times being an illustrator means you, you know, you might be giving up, you know, your bread and butter by, by changing your your, your way of doing it. I remember my, my friend of mine referring to James Taylor and fire and ice and saying, you know what, when you go see James Taylor, he can play his new album for you, but he better play fire.
And I. You know, he's going to happy. He's going to have to play that if the hit is going to have to do that at some point, so. Sure. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. But stretch yourself. That's fine. We want to hear your new stuff, but you know, you've got to do the foundational thing and that's not necessarily a great place to be as a creative person.
You want to always be pushing yourself and challenging yourself and growing and developing that's and, and, and failing, failing along the way. That's definitely part of the, of the deal. So
[00:57:52] John Muir Laws: I like that. And just, I'm going to bounce into that thought a little bit. You're you're talking about how you can be your own coach and yes, but so, but think about what the characteristics that you want in a coach.
If you have a coach with a fixed mindset, That coach is going to be a terrible coach. That's true. Right. So what you're looking for specifically in a coach, a coach is somebody who has a growth mindset, and it's going to pay attention to you to help you specifically change and grow. And you can be that for yourself.
But if you find you put pen to paper and immediately this, your inner critic pops up on your shoulder, and it's just telling you all the reasons why you can't do this, then you've essentially got a coach with a fixed mindset. That's true. And so if, so you have to work deliberately to change the way you frame things for yourself.
How can you get yourself to look at your own work from our perspective of the fixed mindset. If you can't, you do need a coach or at least somebody to help you be able to think about what you're doing from the perspective of a growth mind.
[00:59:12] Danny Gregory: As a process, not as a process
[00:59:15] John Muir Laws: and exactly. And, and, and once you kind of get those routines in, you can take it over yourself, but you think about it.
Serina Williams has a coach, right? Right. Why does Serena Williams has a coach? She's really good at tennis, but she's got a coach because it's often hard to look at yourself and know your next steps. Tiger woods has a coach. Why does tiger woods have a coach the same reason? And that so if, when you, if you are doing self coaching, if you find that the voice of your coach is a fixed mindset one, then, then you got to tap out and go get some.
Right. And that can be from you can create your own peer group of, of you and your friends. You kind of discuss what you're going to be doing. And, and then, you know, have your friend get in there with you and really point out like this part is working. You're doing that more. Now, look, you, weren't doing this before.
You're doing this. Now you're improving really help you see that. It's not just ego stroking to look through your journals and see that you're getting better. You're reinforcing the idea in your head that this whole growth mindset thing works.
[01:00:42] Danny Gregory: And yeah, I'm getting better. Could also mean that you have taken some detour at some point, you know, where you've gotten really good at something, and then you're willing to do something that will make you suddenly get bad.
Again, you take on a new medium, you take on a new subject, you take on a new approach and suddenly you're, you're 10 steps back. But you're on a, you know, overall you're growing, you're still getting stronger because you're trying a new technique that, you know, the one that you've had, the one that you've been doing for so long, you've perfected.
So now it's time to push yourself into unfamiliar territory and try something completely new. And that will also give you new insights into the thing that used to be perfect at as well. I think, you know, you want to always be changing you and always, you know, I mean, not, not to do a commercial, but I think it's sketchbook school.
That's really what we have been focusing on and are finding more and more ways of doing that of, of creating peer groups. You know, so you have an instructor, but then you also have groups of people that support each other and and, and push you in different directions. I mean, we're, we're trying, we have a new program where we're trying to learn about it's called show and talk where you show something.
And you get input from it. So you learning not only how to be brave enough to show something, but also how to teach other people to do it. All right. Good. Well, we have we've crammed another hour with blather and we've, I think it's been, it's always been fun and, and I'm glad that we're continuing to do this.
So thanks for chatting with me today.
[01:02:17] John Muir Laws: Thank you so much. Really enjoyed bouncing these ideas around. And for me, it's also useful just even I've been doing this a lot and teaching some of this stuff just to reflect again, you know, this helps put these ideas of growth mindset at the front of my brain, and it's something that, you know, it's not like you kind of hear the idea and then, oh, now I'm going to have a.
A growth mindset. I still find, you know, the specter of that fixed mindset will sometimes come and haunt me and having conversations like this is going to help me the next time that voice pops up kind of like, oh, I recognize you. Right. You're the coach that I don't want hear that. You're the, you're the, you can even name that coach, right?
If you had like a horrible PE coach in elementary school, you can name it after your PE coach and like, like, ah, there's ed Schalfly. Right. And
[01:03:17] Danny Gregory: yeah, I know. I, I remember I had a teacher fifth grade, sixth grade, sixth grade. He was also the shop teacher taught like wood shop metal shop, and then he taught art.
So that gives you a bit of an insight into him. And he gave us this assignment, draw bird. And so I was excited by this idea and I went home and I spent the weekend and I did this, got a big piece of paper. And I did a drawing, a painting actually of an Oasis in the desert. And it had hundreds of different kinds of birds there, you know, and they were Palm trees over the Oasis, but then there were parents and there were Eagles overhead, and they were birds on the ground.
And so many different kinds of groups gathered around this thing. And then there were mountains in the distance and there's this whole thing. I brought it in, handed it in. Got it back with, I think it was a D minus the subject was birds, not landscape.
I mean, I will never forget that. Let's say the teacher's name. He, whose name will not be said. That's right. Yeah. I will never forget. I'll never forget that lesson and what an impact it had on me and my sacred confidence when I was 11. You know? And, and I think now I look back and I think like, what was up with that guy?
Like, like, why would you say that to an 11 year old would obviously worked really hard on this thing? Like that's like you drinking that morning, but yeah. So I think I, you know, we all, I think we learned a lot from bad teachers. We learned a lot from bad bosses. We learned a lot from bad parents. It's nice to have good ones to learn from the bad ones.
Also teach us how not to be. And they'd kind of give us cues that we can, you know, give, as you said, mentoring, coaching ourselves. It is, you know, even if we have another coach, we still need to be good coaches and good, good friends and help us to ourselves, which is something that a lot of people, I think struggle.
think when it comes to art making
[01:05:29] John Muir Laws: and we just don't, we don't want to absorb though that mindset from that bad teacher, we can still learn from that bad teacher about what doesn't work, but if they're role modeling to us mindset and they've got one that's toxic and not just toxic, but scientifically inaccurate, you fixed the fixed mindset, you know, as, as a scientist, right?
This is one of the hardest shifts criticisms that I can level the fixed mindset is scientifically accurate.
All right. Good. Well, yeah, just to be clear, we are, we're not endorsing that anybody go out and get bitten by a rattlesnake but
[01:06:06] Danny Gregory: it couldn't hurt.
Be safe.
[01:06:15] John Muir Laws: Be safe, be smart, make art, even one of the great opportunities that we have is to just to give yourself this, just give yourself the time and the opportunity to, to feed that part of your brain and your heart with, with, with creative projects and water that with some of the, the, the, the juice of freshly squeezed growth mindset, and you're going to see amazing things.
[01:06:55] Danny Gregory: With that let's go our separate ways. I'm often to drink some, a couple of gallons of creative, of gold, of creative minds. What is the creative growth mindset, growth
[01:07:06] John Muir Laws: mindset, freshly squeezed growth mindset.
[01:07:08] Danny Gregory: I will go and pluck some that's great. It's good stuff. I'll see you next week.
[01:07:14] John Muir Laws: I'll see you next week.
Thanks Danny.